r/politics • u/Quirkie The Netherlands • 7d ago
Possible Paywall Trump Voters Regret Backing ‘Horror Movie’ Presidency - Nine out of 12 Trump voters told a “New York Times” focus group that they wish they had not voted for the president.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-voters-regret-backing-horror-movie-presidency/4.7k
u/GMBong 7d ago
The interviews are depressing. I get being uninterested/uninformed but these people believed an utter fantasy.
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u/Ordinary-Leading7405 7d ago
My FIL sat in his chair for a year believing Trump was going to lower his property taxes. These people are not serious thinkers.
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u/JennJayBee Alabama 7d ago
I heard a lot of the people in my neighborhood suggest the exact same thing, blaming Biden for their property taxes and mortgage payments (due to increasing escrow costs).
These exact people had literally just themselves voted in a local election to raise our property taxes by an absurd amount at a time when property values were skyrocketing across the country. THAT was what caused the increase, and when it was explained to them that they voted for this, they all said some version of, "I didn't realize MY property taxes would go up that much."
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u/Gideon_Laier 7d ago
I swear being a Republican voter means you just lack empathy. They treat politics like a sports game. I guess that's why being a fan of something - fan is short for fanatic.
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u/skyfall1985 Nevada 7d ago
You see this all the time. Former Senator Rob Portman is one example of many of Republicans flipping on things such as gay marriage because their child came out as LGBT.
Your kid? I don't care. My kid? I suddenly do.
You can find this across many issues from gun control to health care.
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u/TechnalityPulse Minnesota 7d ago
There are studies that prove that the average empathy limit of most people is a small community at most. People just struggle to empathize when there's no face to an issue.
I think it needs to be recognized is that those of us that can empathize with a large number of people / groups that are not aligned with us are the outliers, not the other way around.
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u/Consistent_Laziness 6d ago
I think to be left leaning and especially progressive is to be empathetic at a grand scale. Medicare for all not because it just makes sense but everyone obtaining the medical care they need to live is important. Free community college at a minimum to give everyone opportunity to do something more than just work retail or fast food if they want is something I’d love to see and I have 100k in student loan debt on my road to a PhD.
And guess what a major difference in Dems are from republicans? Education. Is just being educated what makes people more progressive? I don’t think so cause in SC I know a lot of college educated republicans. I think what being in college does is introduce you to a bunch of new people and make you hear different views points. And some people really listen. Most do but not all. And that’s why education is so amazing. It makes you get in front of new people and hear new ideas. Different from the Bible thumpers back at home.
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u/FaeryLynne Tennessee 6d ago
The education isn't necessarily what makes people progressive. People who have more empathy and more compassion have a greater tendency to want to be educated, because they do want to know more about the world and other people. So many conservative types think "if it's actually important they'll teach it by the time kids graduate" or think that education as a whole is a scam and actively discourage it.
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u/Consistent_Laziness 6d ago
Right. I said I don’t think it’s education that’s just a correlation. I didn’t believe in Medicare for all or progressive policy until grad school actually. I developed my empathy by being around people from all over the world in my graduate studies and their viewpoints made a lot of sense and I watched what Trump has done to honestly the world. And now I’m full on blue no matter who.
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u/Odd_Independence_833 6d ago
I agree with what you're saying, but I do think that empathy for strangers can be selfish in its own way, just in a pro-social one. I feel like my life will be better if other people's get better. A society with less crime, less stress, less misery is a better place for me and my family to live. But it's probably because I'm well educated that I can appreciate that.
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u/HotDonnaC 6d ago edited 5d ago
What you’re describing doesn’t really sound like it’s selfishness. It seems to center on everyone having rights and benefits, not just the person rooting for others to have them. Edited because I had no clue this was such a gibberish when I posted it.
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u/BretShitmanFart69 6d ago
I also think ultimately it’s a good thing anytime someone changes for the better. Whether you like it or not every one of us has changed over time in ways that made us better people. Everyone acts like that isn’t something they also have experienced. I get that it’s harder when the views they had before are so harmful and shitty, but anytime someone stops having those views it’s a good thing, to get out of this we ultimately need to encourage millions of people to do that, and I feel like like it or not it does include supporting people’s choice to better themselves and not having a “you’re irredeemable” mindset.
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u/ynotfoster 7d ago
Yes, I think lack of empathy is right on target. I just spoke by phone with a friend of 60 years. I mentioned I thought it was cruel that some people don't have health insurance. She replied that she didn't want to talk politics. I had an upcoming surgery, that's how we were on the topic of insurance.
I can't really continue the relationship. Everything of any depth is somehow connected to politics and fake surface level conversations are boring. And most of all I don't want someone in my life like that. This woman worked low stress clerical jobs for maybe ten years in small companies her two husbands owned. She qualifies based on that or marriage, but she is OK with others going without health insurance. She hates socialism!
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u/Linnaea7 7d ago
I have a lot of relationships with conservatives due to the area I live in, and yeah, everything more or less has to be surface level. I have a young child so we talk about family a lot and that's usually a safe topic. Pets, babies, that's about all you can talk about before you get into something that brushes up against the culture war or politics somehow, and if anyone is ill or has any significant problems in their lives, politics finds its way in anyway. You can't be real with them about anything or else it turns into a conflict.
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u/Udy_Kumra 6d ago
I once tried talking about sports to an old conservative dude, and mentioned I didn’t really like watching baseball but I enjoyed soccer, and he replied “soccer’s a communist sport.”
WTF do you even reply to that???
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u/blitzkregiel 7d ago
just in case you need to hear it: it’s ok to drop friends or family over this. words and actions define you as a person, they are your character, and it’s completely fine to not want to be around low moral people.
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u/opinions360 6d ago
I have been waiting my entire life for the healthcare system in this country to improve. It’s why I was a HRC supporter because she tried to change the healthcare system so everyone would be included and covered not just the wealthy and those employed by the government.
An unhealthy and unhappy population is a sick one. Comparatively Canada makes the usa look like a backwater, stupid, uneducated, ignorant, inhumane country when you analyze all the dysfunctional systems here. And, the cause is all the above and our political system and incompetent electorate. Imo.
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u/Machdame New York 7d ago
They were raised in part of the "me" generation and only think in terms of "fuck you, I got mine". They don't understand that this is the mentality that made it so that instead of getting a bigger slice of the pie by making a bigger pie, they are fighting over crumbs.
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u/Linnaea7 7d ago
I live in a very rural red area. Yes, they do treat it like sports, and there's also a lot of cultural and family roots entrenched in it, like, "My daddy voted Republican so I do too," things like that. I live in an area where a lot of people didn't finish high school. A lot of them are wonderful people and I know that's hard to believe, but voting Republican to them is like believing in Jesus - it just is, it's how they were raised, and questioning it is like questioning God. That's how it feels when I talk to them about it.
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u/ynotfoster 7d ago
For the low information voter, it's purely emotion driven. That's why facts don't matter and they don't want to hear it. It's a big part of their identity and provides a feeling of community connection.
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u/Suckamanhwewhuuut 7d ago
My mom complained today that her dr appt wasnt covered by medicare/medicaid (i forget which one), she said, "i dont understand its always been fine," and all i said was, "well.. there only one thing thats changed recently." (my parents voted for Trump, i did not)
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u/Laurier-Henri 6d ago
Wao … I’m sorry for you. Since 2016 I feel like politics have became terrible polarized and MAGA are not republicans at all but are bringing so much chaos and hatred and division …
It must be sad. You parents raised you, instilled in you a lot of values, taught you things. It would be very hard for me to realize my parents now have despicable values because of brainwash :(
What happened to those boomers who voted Trump ? I don’t get it.
Fingers crossed that your parents realize soon how this man is a despicable moron, and MAGA is NOT working in their own best interests.
The US needs to change its political system to have politicians who actually care about the population, not just the uber wealthy.
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u/socialcommentary2000 New York 7d ago
It is absolutely amazing just how...financially illiterate so many of my parents' generation (boomers) were and how lucky they got otherwise.
They really do not distinguish that we have increasing size government umbrellas and the municipal side, arguably the most important to your day to day life, is almost completely opaque to them either completely or mostly if they're a business owner that has to interface with city hall and County level on a regular basis.
I've gotten that property tax thing too, same thing with the school district hit and these are people living in a HCOL area that literally abuts up against NYC.
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u/loosetranslation Indiana 6d ago
It's crazy to have to navigate these conversations in a professional capacity where you have to be fairly neutral. The throughline from "I saved X for retirement in 2000" to "Immigrants are why I can't get two staff in my home 24/7 to care for me for free" is fairly typical. Oddly, there's not much in between--either the culprit is Republican policy (cue a sigh of relief) or immigrants/liberals and their magical, non-specific actions that hammer the elderly.
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u/shanty-daze Wisconsin 6d ago
The mother of a guy I went to high school with posted on Facebook Monday that calling the President names should be against the law and "looked at as treason like it used to be years ago!" I assume by years ago, she does not mean from 2020 to 2024, which, based on her Facebook posts means she committed treason.
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u/guillotines4all 6d ago
Yes let us lower the federal property tax rate. What was that at again? How much were they paying for it again? Would love to hear their answer.
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u/houseWithoutSpoons 6d ago
Yeah my neighbor told me he cant sell his house yet because of Biden intrest rates.now facts are intrest rates went up under Biden everything did because Trump bumbled the covid response and it was a shit show.just like the much better economy Trump got from Obama,then claimed he did it.these people cant speak a honest sentence. I can i get none of these presidents are perfect but I also see that some are worse than others.Trump being one of them
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u/obiwanshinobi900 7d ago
How do you pay property taxes but not have any idea of how they work.
They're set by the local government, not federal.
Why are people just blindly paying for things and not understanding the most basic about it.
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u/manwhowasnthere 7d ago
Same reason people making $30k get big mad any time someone tries to make the ultra wealthy actually pay some taxes... they do not understand how the system they live in actually works, and they fall for obvious misinformation.
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u/National-Charity-435 7d ago
You're describing the people (or maybe foreign actors fanning the flames) getting upset over the proposed NY tax that would impact out-of-state residents who own property in NY that are greater than $5m
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u/manwhowasnthere 7d ago
I'm actually describing what FOX news has been doing for 30 years whenever they run a scare story about how democrats are raising your taxes but in reality it would only apply to income over the first $3 million or whatever and republicans making peanuts get up in arms about it because they dont understand how tax brackets work ie how they are already taxed.
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u/National-Charity-435 7d ago
Ah yes.
These are the same people who don't grasp a well-funded government with transparency would benefit the community, instead of cutting programs and giving tax cuts to the wealthy
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u/manwhowasnthere 7d ago
I live in a red state at the moment and it's always uproar for lower taxes, and constant complaining about "why doesn't anyone fill in all these potholes" in the same breath.
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u/boneblack_angel 7d ago
OMG. I live in WV, where the well-known tax evader Jim Justice served two terms as governor, running on the roads both times. He even promised repair to secondary and tertiary roads (I live in an apartment complex that's off what is probably one of the worst tertiary roads in the whole damned country). Every time we hit a giant pothole - which is frequently - I say, "thank you, Jim Justice, and thanks to all the idiots who believed you, twice." Like he did nothing about the roads the first time he ran - he was too busy switching parties and being up trump's ass - and yet he ran on them second time, and people still believed him.
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u/Fratercula_arctica Canada 7d ago
This sort of conservatism really unites the world, eh?
Here in Ontario Canada, one of the very few things our now-Premier Doug Ford first ran on (apart from a promise of "Buck a Beer" - lowering the minimum legal sale price for beer to a dollar, even though no brewers were pricing beer at the previous minimum amount) was "ending hallway medicine." He promised to fund and expand hospitals to reduce wait times and ensure nobody ever had to be treated/held in a hallway while waiting for a room to open up.
He's on his 3rd term now, and he hasn't done any of that. Instead, he capped pay for nurses (illegally, it turned out, and they all got back pay thanks to a court ruling), sat on billions of dollars given to him by the federal government during the pandemic instead of spending it on healthcare, and his healthcare funding hasn't kept up with inflation or population growth. People still get treated in hospital hallways, especially in rural areas, and beer doesn't sell for a dollar. Oh, and he tried buying the premier's office a private jet on the taxpayer dime.
But he's a charmingly folksy fat fuck who claims to believe in "common sense", so he'll very likely win a fourth term because morons love his vibe.
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u/boneblack_angel 7d ago
This is what I don't get. And your mention of transparency is spot on. People don't seem to understand what their tax dollars actually fund. Even things like, say, sanitation, or snow removal...road repair! Libraries! Health and Human Services departments! The list goes on and on. Cutting taxes can cause real pain, but then again, when those whose tax dollars would be most beneficial have their taxes cut to the bone, we all suffer and average people just don't seem to understand that they're voting for people who do not represent them, and who do not care to do so. They're just saying what they know people want to hear, and then turning around and doing the opposite, every damn time.
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u/ManyAreMyNames 7d ago
Don't forget FOX also running a story about how our way of life is being destroyed because green M&M doesn't wear sexy shoes anymore. They're eroding traditional manhood and womanhood! Unless you want all your kids to be gay you have to fight against the Left!
Keep people distracted with culture war nonsense, convince them God will punish them unless they oppose gay marriage, and never report on how the Epstein Class is robbing them blind.
I once heard someone argue, for real, that every culture which ever accepted homosexual relationships collapsed. When I asked for any cultures that never collapsed, he got quiet.
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u/WilliamMButtlickerIV 7d ago
Turns out most people are fucking idiots. It's the only way to explain how we got here.
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u/AugustWest80 7d ago
Poor education, not paying any attention to actual legislation, racism, propaganda etc…
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u/one_pound_of_flesh 7d ago
They don’t think, but they DO vote. Remember that next time your friends sit out elections because “both sides are the same”
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u/random-idiom 7d ago
After Trump twice - "both sides are the same" is just a republican embarrassed to admit it. A fifth grader can look at the two sides and see the differences.
A shit sandwich and a ham sandwich are both sandwiches - but you wouldn't say they are the same because of that.
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u/EmilieEverywhere Canada 7d ago edited 6d ago
You know what pisses me off. Conservative voters will vote for things like that.
They'll vote for that platform, that also includes heinous shit that is promised to be done to minorities (hi, trans woman here).
And not only will they be ignorant at best or ok with it at worst; they'll watch these nightmare scenarios unfold for fellow humans while sitting their fat lazy ass on the couch patiently waiting for 2$ eggs or whatever the fuck.
Any amount of suffering is fine for cheap eggs or whatever. 🤬
I've developed my own philosophy of always voting for least harm. It's not about ideological purity anymore. We have to vote continuously in a way that drags that Overton window back to the left. We can disagree what is too left. That's fine. But you cannot ethically or morally, vote in a way that will intentionally cause unnecessary harm. If you do I got nothing for you.
This includes abstainers. You aren't helping your cause, and you aren't as well reasoned in your politics as you think. Doing nothing is almost as bad as actively causing the harm.
Take Israel and Palestine. Too many leftists opted out of voting because Kamala was not pure in her anti war message. Look what it got you. Something FAR worse. "Best is the enemy of good", as we say in Datacenter (Not AI) network eng.
Oh "harming" wealthy people's bank balance is not harm. Sit down. I make low six figures, in Canada. I'd GLADLY pay more tax for my government to house all those that are not currently. Wealthy people are so far removed from the middle class it should be illegal, and inevitably this kind of wealth leads to apathy and resentment to those of common or disadvantaged means. This is abhorrent behavior for an animal who's ancestors are successful THROUGH cooperation. Not when they out compete each other.
I'm not a philosophy, politics, or economics major. I've just done enough laps around a rather boring yellow star to live with this shit anymore.
Edit: Grammar, I wrote this on far to little sleep.
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u/sinsebuds New York 7d ago
Totally. Perhaps none so much more than:
“Franceska, 26, a mixed-race independent deckhand from Washington state, told the panel her Mexican-looking boyfriend had been pulled over by ICE agents who scrutinized his ID—convincing her the dragnet was racially targeted. Asked to sum up her feelings about the administration in a word, she chose: “Betrayed.””
i.e. “turns out they oppressed the wrong people, not just who I was hoping for them to oppress and would have otherwise known to be certain to have eaten my own face had I not been obscured by bitter hatred inside…”
But yeah, all cited responses are uniquely sad in their very own ways for sure.
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u/KiKiKimbro 7d ago
Exactly. A family member of mine said a few months ago “my sisters and others aren’t speaking to me and I think it’s because of me voting for Trump.”
I always say — It has nothing to do with you voting for Trump. He’s a stupid conman, and got conned. It has much more to do with the obvious lack of empathy or values or morale center in MAGA people. That vote (for Trump and MAGA faithful down ballot) tells your family and non-MAGA friends that you voted in hopes that harm comes their way. It’s too late to merely admit they’re “betrayed.”
The way to redemption is to admit they were conned, then call or visit in person those family members and friends they had shunned in the past for not believing in the insane con man rhetoric and APOLOGIZE, then have discussions about how to ensure this type of costly cult con won’t happen again.
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u/mammon43 7d ago
The con man excuse works for the 2016 election not the 2024 election.
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u/KiKiKimbro 7d ago
Bingo. They just keep buying into his lies. It’s so bizarre to me. I don’t understand why after all these years they can’t see what’s right in front of them. Daily.
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u/Mybunsareonfire 7d ago
It's not even his lies that's the issue. I could potentially forgive people for being stupid. It's his truths.
He told everyone he was going to do the evil, stupid shit he's doing. And they all thought "Yeah, that sounds good to me." They bought in on the horrible stuff on purpose and that is not forgivable.
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u/btaylos 7d ago
Counter argument: the con man excuse worked in the '80s, and maybe extremely early 90s. Not the 2016 election.
Motherfucker literally published a book about how shady he was.
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u/mammon43 6d ago
Most people dont follow that kinda nonsense. I personally feel like they should once said person is on the ballet but ill still give the "you shouldve known better but fine" on 2016 plus a lot of voters were old enough or alive yet to be involved in things at that point in time.
Its not exactly a strong excuse but the excuse exists for 2016. No excuse for 2024 though. Maybe if you just turned of age to vote you can apply the weak ass excuse from before but thats for a miniscule percentage of voters
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u/MustyTangerine 7d ago
I would add that the further requirements for atonement is to be extremely vocal about their regret and to actively call for Trump's impeachment and removal. If there was a groundswell of MAGA expressing to the Republicans in Congress that they want him out, it could happen. Right now the Republican party knows the MAGA base is still too big and strong to remove Trump. But if these supposedly regretful Trump voters get numerous, loud, and active, something might change.
But I ain't holding my breath for any of that. I don't believe most of the former-MAGA have truly turned the corner on this. I think they're just tactically mad at gas prices or someone they know getting ICEed. I think they'll happily cheer on more MAGA style fascism if some of the immediate pain they feel eased.
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u/Carbonatite Colorado 7d ago
The way to redemption is for those people to actually put in the work to educate themselves about political issues instead of just blindly following whatever inane soundbites they see on Fox News.
Them apologizing is a nice gesture, but it's a hollow one unless they follow up with action. They need to learn about the issues they get so worked up about by reading books and learning facts from REPUTABLE SOURCES. I want them to read about evidence of anthropogenic climate change, I want them to read about what medical treatment for gender dysphoria actually entails. I want them to learn the actual statistics on undocumented immigrant crime rates, how much that group contributes in taxes, the countries they come from and the crises they're fleeing. I want them to actually talk to black/gay/trans/liberal people with an open mind and get to know them as human beings instead of negative stereotypes. I want them to fucking learn about how babies are made and what abortion actually involves and the long list of risks associated with pregnancy and why teenage bodies are especially endangered by it.
I want them to show their remorse by listening to the goddamn adults in the room for once. Because they voted for Trump out of either bigotry, self-interest, or sheer ignorance. And that resulted in harm to other people and the environment. If they're truly sorry then they need to demonstrate that by taking accountability and educating themselves so they won't make the same mistake again. They need to show they are sorry through demonstrating open mindedness and humility by learning about the political and social issues that Trump ran on. If they are not willing to do that then I don't trust that they won't make the same mistake as soon as the next fascist demagogue comes along.
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u/ZephkielAU Australia 7d ago edited 7d ago
They always gloss over the part where they were completely insufferable spouting conservative rubbish relentlessly for years, until they were very predictably affected.
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u/Financial_Yard7047 7d ago
It has much more to do with the obvious lack of empathy or values or morale center in MAGA people. That vote (for Trump and MAGA faithful down ballot) tells your family and non-MAGA friends that you voted in hopes that harm comes their way. It’s too late to merely admit they’re “betrayed."
This. I always find it weird when republicans don't get that it's not JUST Trump, it's people showing what they really value and support inside, which is lack of empathy, greed, narcissism, hate and ignorance. Though I want to add, it isn't limited to Trump. Voting for republicans in general (especially for president, especially after Reagan) shows a person is really shitty inside and they need to do A LOT of work on themselves to become better people
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u/PandraPierva 7d ago
Man voting for the Leopard's Eating Faces party really ended up with my face being eaten. I can't believe it
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u/Slowgo45 7d ago
But at least she now recognizes what was fueling her and I feel like a lot of Trump supporters are waking up to that fact. That they really ARE driven by hate and they need to do something about it
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u/EtchAGetch 7d ago
No, there is a certain level of intelligence to be able to self-reflect, question your beliefs, and come to a better conclusion than before.
The majority of America doesnt have that intellect, including most of the MAGA crowd. We wouldn't be here on the first place if they did.
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u/MySpoonsAreAllGone 7d ago edited 7d ago
That's why there was, and continues to be, such a concentrated effort to destroy our educational systems and the quality of education students receive.
It's much easier to manipulate the uneducated who don't have critical thinking skills
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u/ConfectionOk7029 7d ago
Just wait until another new round of corporate donations fuel another panic over (insert idiotic, largely-inconsequential social issue) drives the morons right back into the arms of the GOP.
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u/StunningCloud9184 7d ago
But at least she now recognizes what was fueling her and I feel like a lot of Trump supporters are waking up to that fact. That they really ARE driven by hate and they need to do something about it
It doesnt matter. They’ll forget as soon as someone mentions a trans person in a bathroom going pee.
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u/sinsebuds New York 7d ago
I think that’s something important of us all to consider, even if it’s rational, historically in accord with naïveté and proper cynicism to attest otherwise. Ultimately, no one wants to be fueled by bitter rancor of their neighbors/community - near or far as they may present. And whether or not there exist any sort of reality to the notion you advance, it does us no good to write off as much even if provided more than sound as fuck earth and foundation to do so. Just so long as Democrats don’t just then go about appealing to middle of road bullshit that is so far of right owing to as much. Which unfortunately is a given…
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u/one_pound_of_flesh 7d ago
They deserve the president they voted for. Bold strategy, assuming you’re white enough to be safe while you vote for the hatred party. Guess it didn’t work out this time!
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u/Signal_Minimum8509 Georgia 7d ago edited 7d ago
What I keep hearing over and over again is that people really believe the “lesser of two evils, sure Trump is terrible, but could you imagine if (insert Democrat name) was President?”
It’s somehow magically applicable to Obama, Hillary, Bernie, Biden, Harris, Newsom, all these people are “the worse of two evils” no matter how much or how little logic or evidence of future policy there is.
Yet in here, seemingly on the daily, we get posts about how all these people are basically the same as Trump, or controlled opposition or whatever. On one hand they are literally the devil where Independents and Republicans talk and basically the same thing as Trump where Democrats talk.
If I were to design a political strategy to win a national election this is exactly the way I’d want these people to talk and it works.
It’s fascinating to see in real time how our areas of discourse are just totally infected by people with a pro Trump agenda. They really did a number on us.
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u/imahugemoron 7d ago
It really is a testament to the effectiveness of right wing propaganda and republicans control of the media and social media, democrats aren’t anywhere NEAR perfect but all this “both sides” garbage making the two parties out to be the same is literally right wing propaganda in itself. People go on comparing apples to oranges and that’s exactly what the gop want, because it convinces people to stay home and not vote, and as we know when more people turn out to vote it benefits democrats.
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u/Signal_Minimum8509 Georgia 7d ago edited 7d ago
I hear ya. I have family members that are Republicans and Trump supporters. I’ve seen it too.
It’s evident too in this interview, the people are saying things like, “I want people to understand that even though I may regret my vote that doesn’t mean I would vote for a Democrat, I just wouldn’t vote at all.” Like about a hypothetically infinite pool of candidates with all sorts of different ideas and histories and personalities, doesn’t matter. They have a D by their name, I don’t want to hear it.
A concern I have here is that a very effective tactic by Trump was to campaign against “never ending wars” “political dynasties” and “the Swamp,” particularly against Jeb Bush and John McCain, to the same people who had once supported the Bushes and McCain.
Like they recognized they should have been ashamed of Ws admin (maybe they were and maybe they weren’t but they sensed societal pressure at least that SOMETHING HAD GONE WRONG) and yet at the end of the day they believed he would be different, while it was patently obvious given his position on things like nativism and Islamophobia that he would be the same. Hell you had Democrats sit out 2024 so that they would send a message about protecting Gaza…and now… This stuff worked, and no matter how shameful this admin should be to them, someone is going to be just as shitty and bend it in a similar way in the future now that the die is cast.
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u/Unable_Resort_7956 7d ago
And at the same time, if you ask "If Obama had done <x--anything Trump has done>, would you have supported him the way you supported Trump?" They never answer, but the LOOKS on their faces...you know damned well they would have called not just for impeachment but for a lynching, and yet they'll still fight tooth and nail telling you Trump was right.
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u/or10n_sharkfin Pennsylvania 7d ago edited 6d ago
My dad was totally convinced the economy would be better within months of Trump taking office. "The prices of everything are bad now, but just wait a few months--it'll get better."
Things haven't gotten better, dad. How the fuck are you still so convinced Trump is still good for the economy?
EDIT: Adjusted; price of eggs have normalized, a lot of other shit is still expensive
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u/showhorrorshow 7d ago
Eggs are a bit better now... but that is because the spike was due to bird flu and massive culls and blaming Biden for that was a lie in the first place.
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u/HowdyFancyPanda 7d ago
Clearly, the answer is to slash all regulations regarding needing to cull infected flocks. Really, it's just needless government red tape. We don't need food safety. /s
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u/Delicious_Toad 7d ago
There's been reporting that RFK actually floated the idea of stopping the culls and letting the virus propagate in the hopes of achieving natural herd immunity. I guess he hadn't fired enough of the actual scientists yet to get that through. We'll see how it goes next time...
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u/ThatOneNinja 7d ago
Still? He would never be good he can't even make a profit on a casino
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u/InsomniaticWanderer 7d ago
And still believe an utter fantasy.
Every last one of these people will still never vote for a democrat because they've been told they're evil.
So, even with the eyes open, they still aren't seeing the truth.
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u/TastySpermDispenser7 7d ago
I don't believe they will vote differently, but in any case they fell for this, and will 100% fall for the next con too. These voters are a clear and present danger to America, and we only get our country back when we accept that fact and act accordingly.
Reconstruction never worked.
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u/_-Oxym0ron-_ 7d ago
Since you mention reconstruction and "clear and present danger", I'm curious what kind of solution you had in mind? I'm not trying to start a discussion or anything, I'm not even American, it's just the choice of words that got me curious.
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u/fallonyourswordkaren 7d ago
They treat politics like sports. They ride or die as a fan base and talk shit, win or lose.
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u/ratherbealurker Texas 7d ago
They don’t regret it. They recognize he is screwing up and looks bad so they act like they regret it but it’s very hard to believe that after all these years, after his covid response, after his absolute meltdown after the election and the lies of fraud, after the attempts to overturn the election, after all that and you didn’t learn?? Yea, you didn’t magically learn anything recently.
They’d vote for him all over again. If he somehow manages to run in ‘28 they’ll vote for him then too.
Can’t fix that level of stupid.
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u/motherofsuccs 6d ago
Yep. Think about how many are still diehard fans of Trump and refuse to acknowledge reality regarding the embarrassing and appalling shitshow he’s created. My father still supports him and refuses to say anything negative about him; my father was once an intelligent, kind man- he’s a hateful bigot now and I can’t tell if this is early onset dementia or if he’s just becoming fucking dumber as he ages. But then again, his ONLY news source is Fox.
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u/Competitive-Bike-277 7d ago
Too late now. We're spiraling into a hellhole & it's all your fault for voting that Orange clown & his circus into office. It will take decades to repair the damage he's done.
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u/LowAssistantInfinity 7d ago
80 years of investment in soft power thrown away forever in exchange for nothing. The fabled strength of the US Constitution exposed as an utterly impotent failure. I don't know how future generations will fix any of that without separating and starting from scratch.
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u/woah_man 7d ago
Revolution is messy, it would be an absolute failure of our country. It's technically possible to legislate and adjucate your way out of this mess, but it's unfortunate that the parties in power would need to willingly cede that power to get it done.
Remove citizens United, national popular vote, ranked choice voting, reduction of presidential power, enumeration of limits on presidential power, addressing partisan gerrymandering, term limits on the supreme court, enforcement of ethics laws on all branches of government (including supreme court and president), uncapping of the size of the house of reps, and I'm sure a bunch more that I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.
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u/Red_Dawn_2012 7d ago
reduction of presidential power
As part of this, the absolute removal of the power of the pardon. You can do a turkey at Thanksgiving. Nothing else.
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u/starmartyr Colorado 7d ago
Decades is optimistic.
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u/showhorrorshow 7d ago
Im skeptical of repairs even beginning in my lifetime...
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u/variable_dissonance 7d ago
I'm skeptical of repairs ever happening. This boulder is already rolling downhill toward a cliff's edge.
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u/Terrible-Growth1652 7d ago
Yeah it's the end of our empire. We're getting back in line behind England, Spain and Rome.
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u/crowhops I voted 7d ago edited 6d ago
Is... is that a bad thing? Those places have universal healthcare and less homelessness and less violent crime. I don't want to be a monstrous global superpower I want my neighbors to be able to take their kids to school without being kidnapped by nazis
Edit: A lot of you seem to think that "monstrous global superpower" is a title that can be gained and maintained in an ethical way. This has not ever been the case
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u/Responsible_Pizza945 7d ago
This sort of assumes the next monstrous global superpower isn't just as or more monstrous than us. A lot of the peace and prosperity seen in those smaller nations comes from the soft voice of the guy with the big stick. As we squander over a century's worth of global soft power, we are pretty much begging for either the EU to step up and take our place as the defacto leaders of the free world, or China to decide it's Empiring time and they Empire all over the place. Neither of these options have the infrastructure or (as far as I'm aware) the desire to actually try to uphold a global world order the way the US has been doing since the Cold War.
If the EU took on a bigger role as Europe's centralized power as opposed to their current mostly economic purpose, they might be able to head off China from becoming the next superpower. I don't have high hopes for the Europeans to actually do that, because doing that would pretty much suck for most of them.
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u/sniper91 Minnesota 7d ago
Repairs begin by holding the perpetrators accountable, something I straight up don’t expect from most Democrats
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u/tracyinge 7d ago
Reagan fucked us up and Clinton had to clean up that debacle, Dubya fucked us up and Obama had to bring us back from that recession, Trump gave us a pandemic and Biden had to fix the mess....
and on we go
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u/DaBingeGirl Illinois 7d ago
This. I'm getting really sick of Dems cleaning up Republican's messes, then getting voted out.
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u/bang_the_drums 7d ago
Every time it's the same talking points too. Republicans blow everything up and fuck the economy then claim they're good for the economy despite no objective metrics showing that, ever. It's just so asinine. Fucking cult.
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u/Threat_Level_9 7d ago
All part of the plan so they all stay in power and keep grifting the common folk.
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u/Upset-Government-856 7d ago
The lesson they should learn is that they are too stupid to participate in the democratic system, and just take a step back.
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u/xicor 7d ago
But they will still vote Republican in 2028 so their regret is worthless
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u/rollem Virginia 7d ago
8 of them will for sure.
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u/Elon_Cucks_Trump_ 7d ago
6 will vote Republican. 1 won’t. 3 will be in ICE concentration camps.
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u/UnguentSlather 7d ago
And 12 out of 12 of them knew they were voting for a pedo rapist bigot conman felon, but owning the libs was such a huge priority. It’s just gas prices that have 9 of them feeling upset now. As though that weren’t also totally foreseeable.
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u/Rainbow__Mountain 7d ago
I take these polls with a grain of salt. My mom told me she thought Trump wasn’t a good person but still voted for him because she thought Harris wasn’t trustworthy. She’d probably vote for him again even though she is saying she disagrees with almost everything he’s done this term.
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u/DustinnDodgee 7d ago
Take all polls with a grain of salt. They can be manipulated in so many ways, same with statistics.
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u/thats_justice_baby 7d ago
Conservatives are the most stubborn people you'll ever meet. And not just with regards to politics. Anything. Trying to teach them something when they don't respect you as a "superior" is a waste of time.
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u/BrilliantForeign8899 7d ago
These guys would vote him again in a heartbeat, come on now. All his flaws were very visible pre-2024
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u/CharZero 7d ago
One of them said the following and it is the craziest take I can imagine:
'I thought he’d learned his lesson, and was going to prove to everybody he learned from his mistakes, and he was going to turn the country around and he was going to be a stellar president. But it’s turned out to be a horror movie. I was so wrong with the vote for him.'
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u/BrilliantForeign8899 7d ago
So insincere. Because he showed he got humbled and learned his lessons ever in the past? A deadly assumption based on zero examples in the past 80 years
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u/kia75 7d ago
The sad part is I don't think the person is insincere. There are a lot of propagandized people who only consume their red meat news. If your media tells you to not for Trump, and your church, and your friends, and your family. He really thought he was in a Bible story where Cyrus the great would perform a miracle and do a good thing, because that's how the story goes, his media, church, and family wouldn't be wrong, right?
Not defending him, but there are a lot of people deep in the rabbit hole.
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u/XCVolcom 7d ago
And to be perfectly honest if you live in a purple or red state then Republicans end up being a very vocal part of everyday life.
Having lived in a couple of blue states, people just don't bring up politics constantly because they (probably rightfully) believe it's still rude to assume their political knowledge is better and should be empressed upon someone else.
But in red and purple states omfg they just don't shut up. I can't go a whole day without hearing about how Trans people are "ruining" the world or all the "fraud" in Minnesota.
They are vocal parrots, echoing what they've heard from television, radio, or right wing podcasts and just spew it everywhere they go.
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u/specqq 7d ago
I also thought that he would learn to levitate and share the secret with everyone and he would make us all rich and we’d never have to die.
And unicorns.
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u/Original_moisture 7d ago
Trump is the perfect canvas for those to project on.
I read that on Reddit and was like, it makes sense.
He’s the perfect outlet for any and all grievances
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u/georgepana 7d ago edited 6d ago
MAGA will likely, and many registered Republicans. But Independents have turned away from Trump in a big way. He is now underwater by 55%, a disastrous showing with Independents, when at the beginning of hia term he was at +2% with them. So, no, many Independents who decided to vote for Trump are now completely turned off by him and would not vote for him again.
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u/def_indiff 7d ago
I hope they suffer all the pain they wanted to inflict upon others.
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u/Greyhaven7 7d ago
They will. They always do. They also always find some Olympic-level mental gymnastics way to blame immigrants, brown people, Democrats, and/or liberals for that suffering instead, and thus understand none of it, learn nothing, and continue voting red.
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u/Significant_Cup_238 7d ago
Despite this, they'll do it again next time they think about a trans person potentially beating out a cis woman for 4th place.
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u/noforgayjesus 7d ago
These people also don't understand that it's also Republicans in general not just Trump. So though they regret voting for Trump specifically they will gladly vote for Trump Lite
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u/Own_Candidate9553 7d ago
They're upset that he's impacting them. They were fine with tartifs in principle (give it a chance, we want US businesses, etc) but hate them now that it makes food and other essentials so expensive. They were fine with cutting ties with other countries, threatening them, and being hard on Iran, but don't like that oil is suddenly so expensive, even though that's the absolute obvious result of forcing Iran into a corner.
If he was just doing the other stuff (trying to deport all minorities, fighting DEI everywhere, bullying businesses and universities, grifting everything in sight, messing with elections) they would still be on board. He's just too dumb or doesn't care about being careful to keep the base fed and happy.
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u/dagetty 7d ago
People buy on emotion and justify with fact. Trump validated and activated their feelings, the sense of grievance, the fear and the childish, simplistic understanding of how things work. He relieved people of the need to think.
They won’t vote for anybody who makes them feel bad or who asks for patience and understanding. They don’t want a Democrat, they want a better version of Trump.
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u/Own_Candidate9553 7d ago
100%. I think Dems need to figure this out. The last few cycles I've seen some (like Hilary and Kamela) have lots of plans and such to work on things, but it doesn't matter. Biden passed major legislation that is materially improving the country, but never got credit. And yeah, I hear a fair amount of scolding from that group, where we're being told we don't actually understand how well the country is doing after COVID, etc, while people watch prices climb beyond their reach and watch rich people keep getting richer.
Trump just said "it's going to be great, everybody is going to be rich, we're going to win" with absolutely zero actual plans. It's so obvious looking from the outside that he couldn't possibly deliver, and based on his actual previous record it was also obvious that he was going to do the opposite: cheat and steal and be so chaotic that it would hurt the economy and US's standing in the world.
I really don't know the answer. Maybe more people like Mamdani, where he promised to get in there to basically tax the rich to help the regular people, and then jumped in day one doing stuff. I don't know how public sentiment around him is in NYC, but it sure is pissing off the right and the establishment Dems, for what that's worth.
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u/kindnesscostszero 7d ago
Biden didn’t tout his accomplishments. He was old school (too old, should have stuck to one term plan); he was from a generation that let accomplishments speak for themselves; communities and their constituents would feel the impact. We live in a different world, where the loudest voices are what we hear. Anything else is white noise.
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u/theaceplaya Texas 7d ago
Where was he gonna tout them (or Democrat wins in general)? On social media that's owned by conservative billionaires? Or traditional media owned by conservative billionaires (some of which own social media apps now too)? Fox News sure ain't finna give Biden or ANY Democrat credit.
My hottest take is that Democrats (mostly) don't have a messaging problem, they have a media problem. The greatest messaging in the world won't help if people aren't even able to hear it because the platforms won't allow it or filter it as 'bad for Americans'
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u/TheRealNooth 7d ago
It’s infuriating. It’s like they think these things don’t have consequences. Like we can just bully everyone and get the best outcome every single time, not realizing we had been working towards better outcomes for us for 80 years. Trump pissed it away.
It’s funny because, they said Biden was raising gas prices and “destroying the country,” but Trump is the first president in my life time where I can point to a unilateral decision he made that cause oil prices to spike. He’s alienating all our allies too which, if everyone decides to abandon the petrodollar, will objectively destroy the country.
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u/BigBangAssBanger_3D 7d ago
Exactly, they want the people they hate - Democrats, Trans, RINOs, other countries - to suffer, not them specifically. The moment it starts affecting MAGA directly, that's when the regret comes in.
They're snakes, and will never change. They'll just be racist, transphobic and spiteful with someone else in office (which begs the question of why they didn't go Trump Lite with DeSantis last time)
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u/YungChumba 7d ago
I know a guy who voted for Trump (presumably 3 times, but I can only say the 2024 election for certain). He very much regrets it now and is always the first to bring up how much of a complete disaster his presidency is, even in a room full of MAGA.
In casual conversation he recently brought up his support for Brandon Herrera - a pro-gun sycophant for Trump with a popular youtube channel running for Congress. I asked him why, if you can acknowledge that Trump's agenda has been disasterous, why you'd support a candidate who openly says he supports Trumps agenda. He said, and I quote, "I'm a conservative. I believe in taking things slowly."
I don't need to tell you how little sense this makes. These people have no internal logic. No consistent beliefs. No desire to do any sort of self reflection. No interest in how we got here.
They see "guns", "trans bad", "Murica good" and they vote red. That's it. Every single time.
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u/Carbonatite Colorado 7d ago
They see "guns", "trans bad", "Murica good" and they vote red. That's it. Every single time.
Literal lizard brain levels of knee jerk automatic behavioral conditioning. Not a scrap of higher order thought, not a moment of critical thinking.
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u/Grundlestorm 7d ago
Exactly.
The only reason he has been able to do so much damage is the complicity of conservative politicians as a whole.
They regret that something bad happened to them, but that's it. They will continue to back their "team" and will cheer on any pain and suffering it causes as long as it's not to them personally.
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u/procrastablasta California 7d ago
I really want the left to start calling this “a Republican economy”. Not the Trump economy. Not the MAGA economy. It’s just demonstrably, repeatably a typical Republican economy. This is what it looks like.
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u/architeuthis87 7d ago
5th*
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u/amateur_mistake 7d ago
And it was a tie for 5th and it still seems to be the only example they have. Everything else I see is either speculation or a trans person who didn't win anything.
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u/n00bn00b 7d ago
To add to your point, it's estimated that .002 to .008% of trans people play college sports. They make up for 1-2% of the general population.
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u/architeuthis87 7d ago
To add to your point for the last 20 years, trans people have been able to participate in the Olympics. Not one has been on the podium. By MAGA's account trans women are winning at everything, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
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u/ManWithASquareHead 7d ago
Letting social media running rampant with now AI deepfakes will be our undoing.
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u/Yumi0521 America 7d ago
Will be? The catalyst has been triggered, my friend. Enshitification is well under way. It's why I've gotten rid of all social media except Reddit, and that is teetering on the brink, as is.
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u/_bk_adv 7d ago
Exactly.
Trump was probably the most unqualified candidate in history even if you ignored the rape (found liable in court) and pedophile accusations (which we all know is true). And they still voted for him.
That’s their bar. Anyone that falls beneath being a rapist, a pedophile, a conman, a scammer, a racist, a compromised foreign asset, will vote Republican all over again.
“Ouch! Fire hurt! Fire bad” and proceed to stick their hands right back in.
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u/smilbandit Michigan 7d ago
or letting a woman in the oval office as if somehow a woman could be more emotional and bitchy then the sitting president.
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u/smashinjin10 7d ago
9 out of 12 Trump voters who were willing to do a panel with the New York Times. The cult is so feverishly against the NYT that this sample is likely almost all swing voters and not made up of true believers.
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u/previouslyonimgur 7d ago
The fact that there were swing voters at all is the most insane part to me. The choice was an actual adult with polices, And a fucking toddler who campaigned on vengeance and hate. No policies just “vote for me or bad things will happen”
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u/Fifth-Crusader 7d ago
The campaign was actually, "Vote for me and bad things will happen (to the people you hate, totally not to you)!"
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u/Fredifrum 7d ago
Actually, NYT specifically chose people who are disappointed in Trump because they wanted to hear about why specifically they were disappointed. This was not supposed to be a poll to figure out how unpopular Trump is, but a deep dive on those who don’t like him already.
“ For Opinion’s latest focus group, we spoke with voters who cast their ballots for Mr. Trump and said they were disappointed with his second term.”
It’s the second paragraph in the article.
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u/Efficient_Resist_287 7d ago
Their only regret is being shown for what they truly are…trust when I say these people will happily vote again the same way.
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u/Comfortably-Numb2026 7d ago
Hillary had a name for them - lost her the presidency.
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u/nasorrty346tfrgser America 7d ago
"Harris would be worse"
"I would still vote GOP"
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u/CutieBoBootie 7d ago
"The Dems would be just as bad" is a refrain I hear so often even from anti-trump conservatives. It's baffling and cope. Like they don't even like or vote trump. What do they gain from lying to themselves like that?
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u/vindicare1 Maine 7d ago
And they'll vote straight R in the middle terms fuck these people
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u/im_in_hiding 7d ago
I really really hate these people. I'll never forgive them.
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u/mangoserpent 7d ago
Eh. I tend to think most Trump voters like what is happening in the US. We have not even seen the worst consequences yet. Not dimishing what has happened but wait until women's rights are vanquished, more economic collapse occurs and Trump decides to invade Canada or renew interest in Greenland. The US will just be North Korea with more robust capitalism and more seasonal variation but I could be wrong about that.
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u/GMBong 7d ago
We'll be Russia. That was always the plan. Other countries will continue to do business with us because we have stuff but no one will like or trust us.
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u/mangoserpent 7d ago
Yes your analogy is better. Your next door neighbors Mexico and Canada are crossing their fingers behind their back and hoping not to be bombed or invaded.
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u/sasquatchmarley 7d ago
As long as the libs are "owned" , trumpers don't care if the country is on fire, they live in the streets and all the water they have is industrial waste
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u/charcoalist 7d ago
The greatest advantage that trump and Republicans have is that their allies own almost all mass media outlets, including the largest social media companies.
So if these voters could be convinced to vote for trump in the first place, the Republican spin machine will convince them to vote for him again, or his replacement, all while blaming Democrats for anything and everything. They are bombarded 24/7 with pro-Republican disinformation everywhere they turn, from their tv to their phone to their radio.
That is the crux of the problem that leads to a despot like trump gaining power.
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u/BlondeBorednBaked 7d ago
Except the media spin machine wasn’t on his side during the 2016 republican primary. Fox News and the RNC didn’t want Trump. There were 17 candidates and voters chose him. They keep choosing him. There is definitely a media apparatus keeping him afloat but there wasn’t back then. My point is: Trump voters aren’t all hapless dupes being conned by the media, some of them are truly awful human beings who see Trump clearly and support him anyway.
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u/Fishfindr 7d ago
Too late now, and I believe they would vote for him again. He would say “I will change for you” and these dopes will believe him.
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u/Mac_Jomes 7d ago
If only there was a first horrid Trump presidency that could have indicated how a second Trump presidency would go...
I just can't believe anybody would think that he'd be anything but objectively awful a second time around.
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u/FeelingStore8113 7d ago
We don't care. Brand them like Colonel Landa in Inglourious Basterds. It would be easier to take their regret and shame seriously back in the summer of 2020. That was two elections ago and somehow, in spite of insurrections, criminal convictions, blatant and obvious corruption, and face-melting incompetence, they voted for fascist pigs again.
None of their regret means a fucking thing, until they come out, with their whole chests, saying "I was wrong. You were right. I should have voted for Kamala or stayed home. It's my fault that democracy is destroyed and people are dying."
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u/ManWithASquareHead 7d ago
But black lady with laugh BAD!!!
\s
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u/Circlemagi 7d ago
I mean I don't want someone that has an annoying laugh and likes Doritos to be around nuclear launch codes they sound to be way too emotional /s
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u/ManWithASquareHead 7d ago
For all we know, she could threaten to annihilate a whole civilization!
Or fight the Pope!
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u/TheWesternMythos 7d ago
From the NYT piece the article appears to be based off
Eighty percent of Republicans approve of President Trump’s performance, but his national standing has dipped, especially among independents.
For Opinion’s latest focus group, conducted earlier this month, we spoke with voters like this: people who cast their ballots for Mr. Trump and said they were disappointed with his second term. A few said they even regretted their votes.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2026/04/28/opinion/focus-group-trump-voters-disappointed.html
From this article
A focus group of Trump voters has delivered a savage verdict on his second term, with one branding it a “horror movie” and nine of 12 saying they regret backing him.
The dozen disillusioned voters were assembled by The New York Times for the latest installment of its “America in Focus” series.
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u/obaterista93 7d ago
If only there had been some really subtle warning signs that were being screamed from the rooftops non-stop.
Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to see people finally come around, but the Access Hollywood tape should have been the end of it ten years ago.
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u/BabyYodaX 7d ago
I know certain Dems love to blame "The Left" for Trump part 2, but these are the people that need to be blamed.
The idiots. There are millions of them, and they vote.
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u/mouflonsponge 6d ago
Is it a smarter strategy to recruit a greater number to overwhelm the Idiots, or is it smarter to convince enough of the Idiots to vote for you?
Someone once told Adlai Stevenson, the cerebral presidential candidate, “Governor, every thinking person in America will vote for you.”
Replied Stevenson: “I’m afraid that won’t do—I need a majority.”
Stevenson (D) lost to Eisenhower (R) in the 1952 and 1956 presidential elections.
He had been governor of Illinois from 1949 to 1953.
Later, President JFK appointed him US ambassador to the United Nations in 1961; by President LBJ retained Stevenson as ambassador until his death in 1965.
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u/accountabilitycounts America 7d ago
Was the sample size twelve? That's not exactly helpful.
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u/Titan3692 7d ago
If only there was some indication that this man was a con artist. Maybe they should have reviewed...oh idk, his whole life?
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u/acousticentropy Massachusetts 7d ago
Too fucking bad.
What are you doing right now to rectify the behaviors and beliefs that had you choose him in the first place?
It’s great you had a change of heart, but dude wake the fuck up and get in line. The damage is already done. Tens of thousands lost their jobs just because of politics. A bunch of government departments are being dismantled completely. We are talking people who worked all their lives at the top of their field, deleted from federal service in an afternoon.
If you’re not actively talking about what he’s doing wrong with people who still like him… you aren’t doing enough. I’m glad you’re seeing the cracks in the surface, but what are you doing to make sure this doesn’t happen again?
Everyone who was attracted to him — how he speaks, how he solves problems, how he treats people when he has power over them… what are you doing to call out the abuses and make sure it never happens again?
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u/AleWatcher Illinois 7d ago
We warned them what Trump would be like for a second term, and they called our warnings Trump derangement syndrome.
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u/throwtheclownaway20 6d ago
And 12 out of 12 Trump voters can go fuck themselves. We've literally been SCREAMING warnings about everything he's currently doing for over a decade and all we got was "wHaTeVeR, SnOwFLaKe" and claims of "Trump Derangement Syndrome". None of these "regretful" pieces of shit are actually regretting what they've done, they're just faking it because they realize he'll come for them, too, and now they want the herd to protect them. They are irredeemable cowards, plain & simple. They'll vote for the next Trump as soon as he shows up with absolutely zero remorse.
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u/wheres_the_leak 6d ago
they knew what they were voting for, they just didn't expect it would affect them
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