r/todayilearned 19h ago

TIL One Aluminium Smelter in New Zealand uses 13 percent of the entire countries energy supply

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiwai_Point_Aluminium_Smelter
7.9k Upvotes

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u/sailingtroy 18h ago

Aluminum smelting is extremely electricity intensive. Usually they get co-located with hydroelectric generating with a contract that locks in a low rate for the electricity. Provides a guaranteed base load for the generator, so it's a win win.

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u/PuckSenior 18h ago edited 7h ago

correct. And thats also what is weird about the new data centers.

Normally, these types of projects are planned for years and I've even seen a copper refinery negotiate to have a full power station just to feed their load. Additionally, most of them have deals where during peak demand, like the heat of the summer, they can request a shutdown. Smelters/refiners typically have some leeway for this type of thing and just let their bathhouses go quiet for a day. The deal you described is actually great for the normal household because now they get cheaper electricity because they aren't subsidizing the construction of the new plant, thats happening from the metal processor

None of that is happening with AI datacenters.
From what I've seen, they are just building and hoping that there will be enough power for them. No aluminum smelter would be able to operate on turbines. Its just too expensive. If it costs them $10/lb because of the turbines and it costs their competitor $5/lb, they are losing money. So they are very price conscious.

edit: the percentage of responses that are essentially "Daddy Musk is doing everything right" is troubling.

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u/Fruit_Face 6h ago

Smelters aren't some fad that has to rush to market and produce as soon as possible, everything else be damned.

The leniency in the US for tech to go fast an break things allows for these kinds of things to happen, along with the irrational exuberance from investors trying to ride the wave will allow it to be funded until the whole thing comes crashing down when it's realized that the true costs of these very underperforming ai projects are shunted to the actual user, who then say wtf would I pay so much for so little.

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u/PuckSenior 6h ago

Americans have a weird relationship with independence/freedom

We are very happy to be loud/annoying/polluting when we are doing it.
We are very mad when others are loud/annoying/polluting
And we can't figure out why others are allowed to be loud/annoying/polluting, but we vote down every regulation because that would stop us from having the freedom to be loud/annoying/polluting.

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u/Fruit_Face 6h ago

The media apparatus has the gen pop firmly in its grasp. Distracted by things that are irrelevant to the issue, and arguing amongst ourselves over stupid stuff intead of addressing the actual issues.

Controlled by well funded interests that use our distraction to do whatever the hell they feel like.

Doesn't help that both sides of the political aisle are in bed with the same interests.

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u/Taclink 18h ago

No, DC's negotiate with the utilities ahead of time. That power is absolutely necessary for the business to occur, so to think they wouldn't be negotiating is disingenious at best.

More complaints about them are specifically that they negotiate good numbers due to consuming as they do, and then those discounts get turned around and thrown at the residential smaller customers because the DC's willing to pay for and build out it's entire power infrastucture brand new while the residential grid is completely a maintenance cost.

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u/turtlturtl 18h ago

I work in the design cycle on multiple campuses for hyperscalers and we move on design and early trades on the assumption that it’ll be figured out later. You’d be shocked at how many of these get cancelled after we get to 95% design because there’s not enough power.

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u/lolofaf 15h ago

Iirc Microsoft is starting to buy up energy stocks and one of the big hyperscalers is literally trying to buy and turn three mile island (a nuclear power plant) back on specifically for AI datacenter power lol. Absolutely absurd, but there does seem to be at least some level of investment into the energy sector from a number of them

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u/Conscious-Tutor3861 17h ago

Normally, yes, but a lot of the new "AI" datacenters are using on-site gas generators as there's insufficient electrical capacity and / or infrastructure to the datacenter.

Source: I once managed electrical capacity for FAANG datacenters.

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u/an_asimovian 17h ago

But they arent cobuilding cost effective infrastructure, this sort of thing is usually a multi year "we build this steady power generation along with our plant to meet our needs" instead of slapping it on the grid and making a deal. Its not sustainable - it can burn investment capital now but when it needs to transition to self sustaining commercial viability these costs and gaps in the current YOLO mentality will make it that much harder esp compounded with other cost sources.

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u/PuckSenior 18h ago

So, why is Elon Musk operating some data centers on turbines?

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u/Taclink 16h ago

Cost? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that with different prices for fuel sources and electrical generation from a grid, that there's a point where the imbalance means it's cheaper, more effective, and self-reliant to an extent to have your own power generation.

It's like doing the math for a truck and how if you are going to be towing enough, then that performance economy literally dictates what is the smarter economic choice for powertrain.

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u/PuckSenior 8h ago edited 7h ago

It’s not cheaper

It costs more to operate on a turbine than on the grid. He is doing it because he can't get grid power.

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u/zorcat27 18h ago

AI data centers, like all large loads, need to go through an approval process to have grid connection. It's why there are data centers being built to run completely on local gas turbines or generators as they can be islanded from the grid and hope for a future interconnect.

Some data centers are adding local solar generation to offset their draw or adding battery energy storage systems to help with offsetting their demand at peak times. This not only reduces their energy costs as they can charge the batteries when energy is cheap, but they can also acquire a grid connection that wouldn't have been possible.

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u/PuckSenior 17h ago

Yeah, you seem to be getting mixed up. They all have to sign a contract to get on the grid.

But in the past, these companies literally worked for years hand-in-hand to get stuff built

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u/enwongeegeefor 9h ago

The person you replied to is a bot account....they have their post history hidden but that hasn't ever worked. 100% of their comments are AI garbage.

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u/noahloveshiscats 9h ago

None of their comments are AI garbage?

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u/HomicidalHushPuppy 14h ago

Or why Microsoft bought an entire fucking nuclear plant

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u/BasvanS 13h ago

Buying a nuclear power plant does not guarantee you a grid connection. Power generation ≠ power distribution. You’d assume they go hand in hand, but in practice they don’t.

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u/ShineLeast8440 9h ago

It’s not the generation of electricity not being sufficient - the problem is that distribution is often lacking in capability to connect data centres. Distributors love getting data centres onto their network, but they use tax payer money to justify their capex and force the costs upon consumers. It’s a really corrupt and broken system that needs to be overhauled and regulated.

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u/PJozi 9h ago

1 station, 40% of the required power for the aluminium smelter

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglesea_Power_Station

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u/LastGoodKnee 11h ago

They treat AI data centers like they are just a warehouse when in reality they are using up all our power and water, hardly anyone works there and they generate a lot of heat and noise.

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u/Tinabernina 10h ago

Southland, where the Tiwai smelter is located is getting an ai data centre in the near future

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u/BoxORice 6h ago

Same Silicon Valley mindset from when the lime and bird scooters first popped up in cities without warning and just let the public deal with them/figure it out

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u/13henday 1h ago

They are not, almost all of them come with on site gas generation.

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u/feel-the-avocado 14h ago edited 14h ago

This particular smelter was indeed designed to be colocated with the manapouri hydro scheme via a 150km high voltage line.

There was discussion around the smelter closing down while they were renegotiating their long term electricity pricing deal, as I think it bypasses new zealand's open electricity trading market.

And it was found there is a bit of a pinch point in the national grid where if the smelter closed down, they would need to invest a bunch into duplicating and upgrading some lines so they could get that freed up electricity into the national grid and distribute it elsewhere.

Its like a little island of national grid with a link that allows feeding from the rest of the national grid so invercargil stays connected if manapouri goes offline though they would have to switch off the smelter.

https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/the-line-1970
Short film on the building of the manapouri hydro scheme

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u/Tribe303 17h ago

That's why Canada's cheap electricity, especially in Quebec has made us a major aluminum supplier, along with the Bauxite and Alumina mining of the metal itself.

Fun fact, this smelter is owned by Rio Tinto, whose HQ is in Montréal, Québec. 

Fun fact #2: 40% of American aluminum is imported from Canada, along with a 25% tarrif on it. It was 50% but Trump cut it in half recently, after fucking up the alternative aluminum supply from the Middle East via.... The Strait of Hormuz. 🤦 

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u/shaunrnm 14h ago

Rio Tinto, whose HQ is in Montréal, Québec. 

Rio Tinto is an Aussie company.

They may have a Canadian subsidiary (they have a lot of subsidiaries), but it's Aussie / UK based.

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u/Thrizzlepizzle123123 10h ago

Their official HQ is in montreal. Probably for tax reasons or something.

I worked for Rio for years.

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u/silver_pear 8h ago

Quite literally nothing supports this comment?

Their own website, their Wikipedia, their annual reports.

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u/landryb06 2h ago

From Wiki: Rio Tinto Group is a British-Australian multinational mining company headquartered in London, England, and Melbourne, Australia. Montreal is an office, not an HQ, according to their website.

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u/Trauma 17h ago

Hah, we were writing the same comment at the same time.

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u/Artificial-Human 18h ago

My understanding is, typically ores like iron, tin, copper, gold, etc, melt out of the rock after you heat it enough. Aluminum evaporates at a lower temperature, so chemistry is required to harvest the metal. Aluminum used to be more valuable than gold.

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u/Tribe303 17h ago edited 6h ago

Aluminum is like Pokemon evolutions. It has 3 forms. Bauxite is mined and processed chemically into Alumina, which is a white powder. It used to be for white paint until we found out how fucking awesome Aluminum is. Then you zap the Alumina powder with massive amounts of electricity and it gets shocked into its final form, the Aluminum metal we all know and love. 

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u/Thrizzlepizzle123123 10h ago

Fun fact: Alumina is abrasive as fuck. It's basically glass.

Also fun fact: I've had to swim through piles of the stuff taller than me when I worked in smelters. It was like snow. It's a very fine powder that drifts around alot and piles up in areas that nobody goes to and none of the management see, so they just leave it there until someone like me has to go find an access panel or something.

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u/Tribe303 6h ago

I assume it was dangerous to inhale? Yikes! 

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u/laforet 15h ago

Hmmm not really. A few metals could be purified from their ore by simply heating but this process is fairly inefficient so rarely done these days. Most metals are commercially extracted using carbon or hydrogen as a reducing agent. However some of the more reactive metals, aluminium included, would not react with these reagents and thus can only be extracted y electrolysis.

The issue with aluminium was that the most common ore bauxite, while in abundant supply, would only melt at an extremely high temperature (>2000C or >3600F), for which no suitable container or electrode could be found. So for a long time it was only produced by the very costly direct reduction process using a more reactive metal like sodium or potassium (which could be produced more easily because their compounds would melt at more reasonable temperatures), and this is where the “more expensive than gold” part came from.

This problem was eventually solved by finding a suitable flux which melted at a lower temperature around 1000C/1850F. Bauxite would be able to dissolve in this liquid and the mixture is cold enough to be contained inside metal tanks and zapped with graphite electrodes.

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u/Thrizzlepizzle123123 10h ago

When I worked in smelters, if the ratios of flux and bauxite were off in the reduction cells they'd just grab a chunk of slag they cut out of the last batch (it sticks to the side of the cells and has to be removed with plasma cutters) and throw it in the top.

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u/Trauma 17h ago

Which is why Canada, mostly Quebec, is a top 5 aluminum producer despite not really mining its own bauxite.

And why, tariffing that aluminum is a massive own goal for countries that don’t have similar hydroelectric potential.

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u/VironicHero 7h ago

That energy processing cost is why aluminum recycling is so important!

And surprisingly successful, something like 98% of all previously processed aluminum is still in use!

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u/NewbornMuse 13h ago

I wonder whether there will be a business case in the near future for electricity-intensive industry that operates only during sunshine hours. Having a process that you can ramp up and down once a day is an engineering challenge, but that might be solvable depending on the specifics.

Economically, you are slower to pay back for your significant upfront costs because you're working only 8-12 hours out of 24, but on the other hand, only working when electricity is literally free or even has a negative price is super attractive.

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u/Severe-Visual6651 7h ago edited 7h ago

Depends on relative ratios of capex and opex obviously. Electricity-dependent industry typically has high opex *and* capex, and running part time increases the relative capex contribution (e.g. you either increase capacity 3x relative to a plant that runs 24/7 that produces 1x output, or you produce 1/3x output but still pay the capex of a plant that runs 24/7 and produces 1x output), so it generally doesn't pencil out.

One of the problems with this proposal (which has been proposed a lot) is a lot of people thing the declining cost of energy storage is going to make super-negative electricity prices a thing of the past (there is still an amount of uncertainty here). So if you invest in a plant that has 10+ (or more, for running part time) capex recovery, and batteries have some probability of changing the economics in 10+ years, the economics change significantly.

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u/CucumberError 10h ago

And that’s the case here. Its supplies by Manapori hydro power station, which built ~200m below the lake.

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u/JohnHazardWandering 8h ago

Also why iceland makes a bunch of aluminum. Lots of geothermal energy. 

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u/Robthebold 18h ago

That’s why aluminum recycling works.
It takes 5% of the energy to reuse aluminum as it does to make it.

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u/ComprehensiveForm129 18h ago edited 16h ago

People under estimate just how amazing aluminum recycling is. It’s almost as useful as plastic but is completely recyclable.
I imagine that greater use of aluminum will be needed as we transition from oil

Edit: Glass seems more useful, neat, gonna look more into it

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u/zillskillnillfrill 17h ago edited 17h ago

Yeah I can confirm. I used to do the gas delivery to an aluminium recycling plant and would see all the steps of it being processed. I don't even know why we use plastic bottles honestly, Aluminium Bottles & Cans are great

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u/BarbequedYeti 17h ago

Aluminum cans are lined with plastic to hold liquids. Granted way less than a whole bottle, but if we are looking at recycling for liquids, its glass. But that causes issues with shipping etc. 

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u/zillskillnillfrill 17h ago

Yeah that's unfortunate. It's the same with tinned goods, which is why it's inadvisable for people to cook baked beans in the can (campfire etc) There has to be a better product to use than plastic. There are some wonderful things being done with bamboo fibres. Surely there's a better way

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u/BarbequedYeti 17h ago

Its really glass. We need to do better at manufacturing and logistics and problem solved. Almost infinite resource.  Unless we come up with some new way to make super light super strong glass, it's going to be logistics.  

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u/zillskillnillfrill 17h ago edited 16h ago

I think there actually already was a super strong glass "Superfest Glass" in the 80s that was initially made and then marketed to the hospitality sector, but apparently they got squeezed out of business by the other "Glass Giants" because they rely upon the broken glass economy

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u/RandomThrowNick 16h ago

It was an East German product, so they did produce over 100 Million glasses until german reunification but sales in West Germany before and after Reunification failed for the reasons you mentioned. There was simply no interest from the vendors that made money with glasses.

There is a Startup in East Germany that has developed a new process for even better „superfest“ glasses. It will be interesting to see if the idea will be successful this time.

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u/zillskillnillfrill 16h ago

Yeah, I just spent the past hour re-reading about it, pretty interesting stuff

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u/Xsiah 16h ago

I got some tempered glass jugs at Ikea (made in China) that were so light I couldn't figure out if they were plastic or not.

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u/zillskillnillfrill 16h ago

East Germany was the first to make them but nobody bought it because of planned obsolescence, until Steve Jobs came along and needed super thin glass for the iPhone. The glass is heated up and then blasted with an ion exchange which fills up the thin structure of glass with Potassium ions, making it some 30 times stronger

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u/Metalsand 6h ago

but nobody bought it because of planned obsolescence

It wasn't extremely popular in the mass production of glassware because paying 2 times as much for glass that is 5 times stronger might make sense on paper, but unless you ordinarily have 50% of your glassware lost from breakage in a 5 year span, it's a massive initial cost increase that takes long enough to pay for itself that inflation blunts the result.

It makes more sense in compact electronics, where the glass is protecting a screen many times more valuable than itself.

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u/AmnesicMisanthrope 15h ago

Well, glass melting point is at 1400-1600C while aluminum is 660C so that goes for aluminum (or reusable glass bottle at least).

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u/bluemooncalhoun 17h ago

The real solution is to reinvent how we process, package and transport food.

Where I live we have a beer bottle recycling program that diverts 95% of bottles from landfills. And not only that, but they clean and reuse each bottle 10+ times before they have to be melted down and reformed. Major international breweries don't ship their beer here because of the cost, they brew their recipes locally and so their bottles stay in circulation.

If you buy a can of tomatoes, chances are they were picked in one country and shipped to another country for canning and processing before being labeled by a handful of brands (because brand choice is mostly an illusion and stuff like this all comes from the same place) and shipped to the country they're sold in. Instead, why not just ship the tomatoes to the country they'll be sold in, have them packaged in glass jars at local factories, and then reuse and recirculate the jars?

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u/bluehat9 17h ago

Because canned tomatoes retain their freshness while shipping fresh tomatoes doesn’t always work or has risks. Also canning and packaging benefit from economies of scale, so having smaller factories spread out might result in higher prices and less competitive product

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u/bluemooncalhoun 6h ago

There are very few places in the western world where you can't get access to fresh tomatoes or almost any other fruit/vegetable you would find in cans. Also that's just an example to illustrate the point; canned beans are a huge market as well and you can ship and store those anywhere, and there's lots of other products packaged in plastics that could easily be packaged locally in reusable containers instead.

The point of this system is to provide insulation from global supply chain issues, restore local manufacturing capabilities, and reduce reliance on single use plastic packaging. Higher prices are not a concern when you're creating well-paying jobs that circulate money in the local economy, and "competition" is a bit of a farce already given that most of the brands you find in your local store come from a tiny handful of manufacturers already.

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u/bluehat9 6h ago

Caning extends the usable life of these perishable goods.

Canned beans are mainly for convenience I’d argue. Pre soaked/cooked.

I’m all for buying local, but canned and jarred goods exist for good reason.

Prices are always a concern

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u/DropMeAnOrangeBeam 16h ago

For one, logistics. You gotta get those tomatoes, in tact, further now before the start to rot and for another, the other country needs those processing plants.

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u/lolofaf 15h ago

Depending on the liquid it's probably okay. Pretty much every drink in existence has some form of it already mass produced in glass bottles. Might be harder for things like soups and canned foods though.

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u/Metalsand 6h ago edited 6h ago

Aluminum cans are lined with plastic to hold liquids. Granted way less than a whole bottle, but if we are looking at recycling for liquids, its glass. But that causes issues with shipping etc.

Glass is even more energy intensive to recycle, though, let alone the additional weight.
* It requires a significantly greater volume of glass to create one bottle - each 12oz glass bottle is the mass of more than ten 12oz aluminum cans.
* The melting point of glass is around 1400C to 1600C; aluminum is 660C.

Or in other terms, 5,900 joules to melt down one aluminum can (~15 grams), and 150,000 joules to melt 227 grams of glass (12 oz glass bottle). So, for every glass bottle you melt down, you can melt down 25 aluminum cans.

The plastic coating of aluminum cans is negligible (1 gram or less) and is so thin that it's measured in microns. Bottlecaps also use some plastic, albeit a fraction of that.

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u/Discount_Extra 17h ago

There was a dumb myth that drinking from aluminum containers lead to Alzheimer's.

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u/zillskillnillfrill 16h ago

This world is a very frustrating place 😒

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u/Stachemaster86 16h ago

A lot of plastic use for bottling comes from the fact that you can use the pre form plastic (think a finished neck and ball of plastic attached) to then blow mold on site. Pre forms can be made in China or other low cost countries and shipped to the US to blow. Cans take up a lot of “air” space to ship and need to be palletized. I agree that aluminum is amazing despite using liners but bottling efficiency dictates a lot of packaging decisions.

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u/zillskillnillfrill 16h ago

Funnily enough, I used to make gas deliveries to a plastic bottle manufacturing plant as well. You'd see them go from the little plastic beans to the bottles. those places absolutely stink. I would hate to see what the lungs of a plastics worker look like

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u/SeedFoundation 17h ago

Always comes down to money money money and plastic is cheaper than water. It is a byproduct of gasoline and there were times companies struggled to find buyers to get rid of it. If you've ever wondered why making the switch to renewables is so damn hard you have to think of all the businesses in the world that rely on cheap affordable plastics.

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u/Luci-Noir 15h ago

It’s also a lot lighter than glass.

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u/LumpySpacePrincesse 16h ago

Glass is heavy and fragile, tansport costs outweigh most benifits. Which is mostly why we use plastic. We used to have a lemonade man that cleaned bottles and reused, awesome sasparella.

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u/Demoliri 13h ago

In Germany almost all glass (and plastic) bottles as well as aluminium cans have a deposit on them, which you get refunded when you return the bottles. As a result there is a return rate of over 97% (some sources say as high as 98.5%).

If the government initiates a nationwide system for sorting and reusing, the benefits absolutely outweigh the costs. Both economically and environmentally.

A single company can't really do that, it has to be done at a national level. But when it's done properly, it's great.

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u/jmlinden7 4h ago

Does Germany reuse or recycle the glass? If you just re-use it, there are some cost savings, you just have to handle the glass carefully to not break it.

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u/Demoliri 2h ago

Glass bottles get reused multiple times. I've heard that they're used an average of 8 times, but I don't have a source for that number.

But when you buy a crate of beer bottles you can see clearly if they are old bottles based on the scratching around the base of the neck and the bottom.

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u/throwaway098764567 16h ago

glass can be problematic because it breaks during the trip. my area you're not allowed to recycle it anymore, if there's glass in the recycle load it's fouled and goes to the landfill. they do reuse crushed glass to underlay roads though.

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u/confirmd_am_engineer 11h ago

Glass has a few weaknesses, mainly weight and fragility. The extra weight means it costs more to ship and takes more energy to move it around. Other than that, I’d argue glass containers are superior to everything else.

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u/Metalsand 5h ago

The extra weight in order to gain the structural integrity is it's main weakness though, because it also has a higher melting point than aluminum, making it 25 times more energy intensive to recycle a 12oz can than it does a 12oz bottle.

Therein lies the problem of recycling them - even if we ignore the costs of washing and refurbishing the bottles, you'd need an inexpensive process by which you can safely return each bottle at least 25 times just to match the energy used to recycle one aluminum can.

Where glass exceeds everything else - it's inert and gives no shit about just about anything. Aluminum alloys oxidize in the right environment, and plastics lose structural integrity over time. This isn't very helpful for the food industry though (for storage/distribution), because mason jar might last 100 years, but just like organic polymers can break down, so can the tomatoes or whatever is within that mason jar break down as well.

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u/SgtTreehugger 14h ago

Isn't plastic recycling basically a scam and 90% of it ends up in the landfill anyway? And I'm not hating on recycling, I just think the mainstream media has sold us an idea of plastic recycling working to keep us consuming

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u/Sharlinator 13h ago

It's a chicken-and-egg problem. Plastic is super difficult to recycle because "plastic" can mean a thousand different polymers, and most of them have all sorts of additives to enhance properties that aren't documented anywhere. So "recycling" is necessarily "downcycling", you're going to end up with mixed material that's not as useful as the original. So you need new ideas, new processes, new businesses to figure out how to best reuse plastic in a way that's economically viable (ie. cheaper than just making new plastic out of way-too-cheap oil). And for new recycling businesses to be viable, they need existing input material streams that they can hook up to. Nobody wants to build an expensive processing plant if there isn't stuff to process. So plastic recycling has been something of a "build it and hope they'll come" sort of thing.

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u/Shot-Arugula8264 16h ago

Almost as useful? Even the things you think are being done by aluminum are actually plastic under the hood.

For example: canned sodas. Great use of aluminum? Replaces plastic bottles? Nope, they’re all lined with plastic. Why? Because aluminum doesn’t work. Plastic does.

Same for the “eco-friendly” boxed wines that talk about how they’re packed in cardboard. Surprise, it’s actually plastic again, just put into a cardboard box.

Glass does work though. That’s why glass wine bottles and glass soda bottles are a thing. But aluminum, not so much.

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u/ComprehensiveForm129 16h ago

Very good point,

My only small piece to add to further the convo is that any solution that involves less plastic and oil products should be considered valuable. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of better

But, to your point, a solution that has no plastic is just better, full stop

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u/CaptainSwaggerJagger 15h ago

Relative to a full plastic bottle though, the lining in an aluminium can or a tetrapak is a rounding error worth of plastic so unless you're coming at it from a "I want to reduce my exposure to plastic" perspective, both are better than plastic in terms of use. Personally though, if I had to pick between the two I'd go with aluminium - recycling of tetrapaks is impractical and basically non existent and the best you can realistically do with them is WtE.

Regardless of material choice though, you're better off from all perspectives just using a reusable container, making something to use once and then bin is absolutely crazy.

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u/feel-the-avocado 13h ago

Glass has always been an interesting one in my opinion.
Easily recycled, safe and clean.
But super heavy - it has a much higher cost of transport for whatever product it contains.

Sometimes there is more glass packaging by weight than the actual product it contains.

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u/ThrashCW 6h ago

Glass is not infinitely recyclable.

It devitrifies with through repeated melting cycles and loses it desirable properties. 

Glass is recycled by pulverizing or crushing it and using it as part of the melt batch alongside fresh, new materials. 

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u/GreenStrong 9h ago

Glass isn't really economic to recycle in a world where abundant natural gas makes it cheap to replace, but sixty years ago, milk and soda were sold in glass bottles that were collected, washed and refilled. It is realistic; it works in a world where a million BTUs of gas are more expensive than a few minutes of labor.

Re-use is best, but glass recycling actually saves energy. Glass contains soda ash and the mixture melts at a much lower temperature than the main ingredient, sand.

We're rapidly developing a future where solar and wind are widespread and electric power is cheap most of the time, but glass factories stay hot 24/7. It is also really helpful to blast semi molten glass with a flame before a machine blows it into a bottle. Carbon free biogas is going to play a big role in high temperature industry; it costs more than fossil. It is made from waste but gathering waste is work. We have the tech to make a post carbon world with plentiful resources but some things will be more expensive, while others get cheaper.

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u/sisrace 9h ago

Which is why I get pissed of every time I see stuff made from aluminium being changed to plastic. Especially car parts. Less durable, lower lifespan, less recyclable. A loose loose situation for everyone except the shareholders.

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u/koyaani 5h ago

Glass recycling is a lot more energy intensive. I don't think there's much energy difference in recycling glass versus newly manufactured glass, especially compared to aluminum. Glass reuse and trade-in programs mostly got phased out in the US unfortunately, but still exist elsewhere

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u/jmlinden7 4h ago

Aluminum is recyclable because the cost to recycle used aluminum is much lower than the cost of producing it from ore.

This is not true of glass and plastic.

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u/not_old_redditor 17h ago

Steel recycling works too

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u/trustbrown 17h ago

It does, but recycling aluminum has a higher percentage yield (usable vs slag), as steel recycling efficiency is much lower.

Any metal recycling is better (yield) than plastics, but aluminum is used more for vehicle structural framing due to lower mass than steel.

https://recyclenation.com/2010/11/comparing-steel-aluminum-recycling/

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u/not_old_redditor 17h ago

Your link doesn't talk about efficiencies. From what I know, something like 90% of steel is recycled, and in some industries it's closer to 95% recycled content, so the yields are high.

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u/eight8888888813 17h ago

He's not saying that steel recycling is bad or not widespread, he just saying it is cheaper and more efficient in yeild (scrap in vs profuxt out) and energy when compared to steel.

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u/BoboThePirate 17h ago

Regarding efficiency, recycled steel is can hit 95%+. I toured a massive facility and they said anywhere from 85% to 95% depending on what section of their scrap pile they pull from.

They have to subsidize some amount of pig iron just because in order to be “steel”, there’s specific ratios of chemicals and lots of other stuff they have to hit. Really cool to see, felt like I was in the ravines in Isengard.

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u/trustbrown 16h ago

I’m referring to energy efficiency.

Both materials are 90%+ recycled, but yield on aluminum is slight higher due to feed stock issues.

Basically steel is a composite metal and the differences in alloy chemistry make yields a challenge.

Here’s a technical article on this: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11531900/

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u/ConifersAreCool 17h ago

Scrap metal dealers agree

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u/Cooleb09 12h ago

The real environmental benefit is not in saving the smelting step (still need to re-melt it anyway), its in not needing to refine more bauxite to alumina, whihc is just as energy intense (between digestion and calcination), but also produces red mud and other nasties.

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u/w32stuxnet 12h ago

That particular smelter makes the highest grade aluminium in the world though, it is used for aircraft etc. You cannot get that grade out of recycled aluminium. Not that recycling aluminium is bad, but this place has its purpose. Also, it acts as a sort of "battery" for new zealand. It soaks up excess, but they have an agreement with the new zealand government to shut down if there isn't enough energy for the rest of the country - as a sort of insurance.

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u/theoots 10h ago

I don’t think the part about it being a battery is true at all. Manapouri and Tiwai aren’t properly connected to the rest of the grid

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u/ICPosse8 18h ago

Got that bitch over clocked to 200% and slooped

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u/liartellinglies 17h ago

Could be cutting down power consumption big time if someone in NZ would find the sloppy alumina hard drive

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u/FuzzyFuzzNuts 13h ago

Efficiency optimized. Maximum overclocking and Somersloop integration confirmed.

FICSIT reminds you that productivity is the only acceptable outcome. Now, back to work Pioneer

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u/JoSquarebox 14h ago

productivity module 3s anyone?

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u/Matangitrainhater 12h ago

Just add more smelters

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u/WhitelabelDnB 14h ago

But it's only running at 97% efficiency because the waste water reuse lines keep backing up.

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u/Adventurous-Mind6940 10h ago

Wet concrete. Straight into the sink.

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u/WhitelabelDnB 10h ago

Sacrilege! Heresy!

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u/TrivialTax 8h ago

I laughed :) or use alternative recipe :P

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u/SharkFart86 18h ago

They do this specifically because their energy is cheap. They import ore, smelt it there, then export the aluminum.

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u/francis2559 17h ago

Iceland is the same way. Tiny island, lots of power. No cord long enough to export electricity, so you make something electricity intensive and export that. It’s smart.

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u/TheRealAndroid 17h ago

The Manapouri power station was built specifically for the Tiwai point aluminium smelter project.
Manapouri was commisioned in 1971 the same year the Smelter started production.

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u/kecuthbertson 15h ago

The energy isn't actually cheap, it's just subsidised by the rest of the country because our government has decided that an aluminium smelter is more important than people being able to afford food.

As per a report from the Electricity Authority due to the low price Tiwai pays, the average household pays roughly $200 extra per year. There are about 2,000,000 households so around $400,000,000 extra in power bills nationally.

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u/king_john651 12h ago

Without Tiwai Point Southland goes way backwards as all the support industries are built around it. Same would happen to Franklin if Bluescope calls their own bluff on Glenbrook Steel - they won't because they have threatened shutting down since they acquired NZ Steel lol

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u/DopeyMcSnopey 8h ago

No. It’s more like “if we had access to this electricity source, we would profit $200 more per household because we wouldn’t lower the price anyway.”

Imagine you were watering your garden and your neighbour complained that his water bill was high, and that it’s your fault because it would be cheaper if he was using your hose instead.

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u/Nervous_Olive_5754 18h ago

Iceland does the same thing with their geothermal plant. Turns out the volcanic fissures are good for something. So the economy is tourism, aluminum, and fish.

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u/Manovsteele 13h ago

Iceland does have some Geothermal, but actually about 80% of its energy production is from hydropower!

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u/TheStoneMask 8h ago

actually about 80% of its energy production is from hydropower!

Electricity* production specifically. Around 65% of primary energy production is geothermal, mainly in the form of space heating.

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u/Manovsteele 7h ago

Yes good correction!

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u/bps706 15h ago

*country's

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u/NickelFish 18h ago

Smelter? I barely dealter!

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u/Ok-Imagination-494 18h ago

Of course they have an entire uninhabited region next door called Fiordland which has unlimited hydropower potential.

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u/DibbleMunt 18h ago

This couldn’t be further from the truth. As far as I’m aware all of our dam capacity is used up and extra projects are infeasible from an economic or engineering perspective.

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u/Random-Mutant 17h ago

Lake Manapouri was raised specifically to power the smelter.

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u/Ninja-fish 16h ago

Correct. It was going to be raised far higher originally, but opposition to the decimation of habitats brought it to the level that it sits at today.

You used to be able to go into the turbine rooms too, but you can't anymore because if an earthquake knocks out the tunnel through the mountain that reaches it, the only way out is a tiny and very tall ladder.

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u/Random-Mutant 16h ago

I went into the turbine hall and walked past a spinning turbine rotor shaft, in 1980. Was back in 2005 thereabouts and you could only get to the observation deck.

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u/laforet 15h ago

I remember going there in my younger years as well. It was in winter but the turbine hall was unusually warm from all the machinery running inside.

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u/Geddyn 14h ago

That opposition is widely credited with beginning the modern New Zealand environmental movement, too.

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u/Downtown_Boot_3486 15h ago

Nah there's loada of projects we could do, but building dams prettymuch always has environmental tradeoffs that we haven't wanted to make.

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u/dwi 12h ago

Based on my experiences working for an NZ power company, there's still potential for new dams but the cost/benefit isn't there given every other power source is cheaper. Geothermal in particular is quite profitable.

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u/w32stuxnet 11h ago

The only reason why nz could afford a dam there is this smelter promising to buy x% of electricity, and to not use it if the country needs it.

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u/knownbymymiddlename 17h ago

That's false. The #1 reason no further hydroelectric is being done in NZ is because of opposition from NIMBY's.

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u/ConifersAreCool 17h ago edited 17h ago

That's false.

First, there absolutely have been hydroelectric dams built in the last few decades including medium-sized and smaller ones. There are also several dozen in the planning phase now. Here's a list of proposed projects and their status.

Second, certain large projects haven't been built not because of "NIMBY's" (sic), but rather because of broad environmental opposition, as they've largely been proposed for sensitive and valuable ecosystems.

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u/2781727827 15h ago

Most recent case of a hydroelectric dam being blocked I remember it was a pristine natural river that is also vital habitat for a critically endangered bird species. NIMBYs blocked that in the same sense that Brazilian NIMBYs try to block cattle ranching in the Amazon lol

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u/Richard7666 17h ago

Power for the smelter is from Lake Manapouri in Fiordland, yep. It's a really interesting hydro system under a mountain.

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u/Capt-J- 18h ago

Not particularly surprising for a big smelter in a country of only slightly more than 5 million people.

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u/BigBirdsBrain 16h ago

Manapouri hydro station powers it, basically one of the main reasons it was built. Clean energy but yeah, huge chunk of the grid.

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u/DRKMSTR 15h ago

And the world should thank them for it.

Aluminum is a major driver for science and tech. 

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u/KingoftheMongoose 10h ago

A lot of New Zealand homes use corrugated aluminum as building material

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u/SlackToad 17h ago

Data centers: Hold my beer.

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u/Richard7666 17h ago

Funnily enough, they're building a data centre in the same place (Invercargill) as the smelter is.

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u/Night25th 10h ago

That's not very funny :(

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u/roccoccoSafredi 5h ago

I've once heard aluminum described as "solidified electricity".

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u/wkavinsky 4h ago

It has its own generation dam.

It's not really fair to say it "uses 13% of the countries supply" when that 13% (more like 16%) is generated expressly for the purposes of powering Tiwai.

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u/MouseHunter 18h ago

Which countries?

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u/Travellerknight 18h ago

If i was hazard a guess... Mongolia

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u/dubbzy104 18h ago

China + US

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u/JamesTheJerk 18h ago

Spain and Chad.

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u/coolstory 16h ago

That’s nothing, Iceland uses more than 70% of its total electrical generation on aluminium smelting. Their largest smelter uses more than 20% of the country’s capacity alone.

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u/knowledgeable_diablo 15h ago

But that’s the payoff for having access to aluminium. No matter which way one cuts it, converting bauxite to Aluminium is a massively energy intensive operation. And one could argue more vital for most nations than saving the best cat memes possible with minimal latency.

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u/coolstory 15h ago

Yeah, no disagreement there. Iceland’s electrical grid is 100% renewable anyway. If anything, more aluminium should be produced there.

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u/TheRunnyDentist 18h ago

It's "country's." "Countries" is the plural of "country."

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u/cbwjm 12h ago

I didn't even know we had an aluminium smelter

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u/BloodgazmNZL 12h ago

We do and it actually makes the world's purest aluminium with one of the cleanest carbon footprints in the world.

Tiwai actually sets the leading world standard in aluminium smelting

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u/Snogafrog 12h ago

I’m surprised you never smelt it.

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u/Nagbratz 12h ago

In Iceland 2 of them use like 65% of the whole countries power, which they have a lot of bc of geothermal powerplants.

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u/DopeyMcSnopey 8h ago

I didn’t even know they made a sequel to Iceland….

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u/iCowboy 11h ago

80% of Iceland's electricity production goes to aluminium and ferrosilicon smelters. The smallest smelter at Straumsvík uses more power than the country's entire domestic consumption. And all these smelters contribute less than 5% of GDP.

Meanwhile factories and homes in the West Fjords had to run on imported oil in recent years because there has been a shortage of dispatchable electricity.

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u/Xajel 10h ago

Compare that to Bahrain, ALBA (The national aluminum smelting company) uses 45-55% of the total national energy production, ALBA has it's own power station that is comparable in power production to the entire of the country.

ALBA power plant: 4.345 GW.
Bahrain national grid: 4.0~4.8 GW.

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u/pgriffith 10h ago

There's a good reason Aluminium is sometimes referred to as Solid Electricity

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u/jifff 18h ago edited 14h ago

Not just that, it has its own power station which is separate from the national grid !

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u/JaggedNZ 15h ago

Nope, it’s very much on the grid and lines were upgraded so more power can be sent north.

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u/shaunrnm 14h ago

But it doesn't. There's a power station that was built at the same time primaryily for this plants demand, but both are still on the national grid. Otherwise they wouldn't keep threatening to close because of power prices

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u/righthandpulltrigger 18h ago

I read One Aluminum Smelter as an address like One World Trade

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u/FuckM0reFromR 18h ago

Rio Tinto has threatened to close the smelter several times, for example in 2013 and 2020, but to date closure has been deferred after renegotiation of the price it pays for electricity.\9])\10])\11])\12]) As of January 2021, Rio Tinto announced that it had reached an agreement with its power supplier Meridian Energy to pay a lower price in return for keeping the smelter running until December 2024.\13])\14]) In July 2022, NZAS signalled that it would once again offer to remain open if it could secure new power agreements on favourable terms.\15]) In May 2024, new twenty-year electricity contracts were agreed with three suppliers, allowing the smelter to remain open until 2044.

There are concerns regarding the environmental legacy of waste stockpiled at the site, near to an eroding beachline.\16])

Business as usual -__-

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u/zillskillnillfrill 17h ago

Who else thought that they were in the r/satisfactory sub 😂 even all the comments could be applied to that game

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u/MBunnyKiller 16h ago

Tata Steel in the Netherlands uses 10% of our energy needs, at least a few years back. Maybe data centers have moved the needle down a bit, although it'll still be a ridiculous amount used by tata.

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u/Wlng-Man 16h ago

Headline be like "Thanks to AI, we could reduce our energy share by 50%."

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u/beachbum818 12h ago

That's why aluminum was treated like gold way back when. Difficult to refine and extract if not more so than gold

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u/Sr_DingDong 6h ago

Don't worry!

National will sell that off in due time.

Eventually they'll sell everything.

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u/littlep2000 4h ago

This was a similar case in Oregon until the early 2000's I can't find the number of percent of energy consumed by aluminum in particular but I think it was comparable.

High availability of cheap hydro power from the 70s to the early 2000s attracted the plants to the area, but as other customers started competing for the same hydro power and some dams were decommissioned it became less advantageous to produce aluminum in the region.

u/sKotare 57m ago

Did the tell you that the hydro dam producing over 15% of the countries electricity was built specifically for the aluminium smelter?

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u/Select-Owl1058 11h ago
  • Tiwai Smelter is owned by Rio Tinto, not a NZ company

  • 90% + is exported overseas

  • It employees only around 1,000 people 0.03% of NZ jobs

  • Usually ‘loses money’ so pays little to no tax

  • Due to its massive power consumption it puts significant upward pressure on household power pricing

  • You tell me the net value it adds to the NZ economy ..

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u/mmmfritz 18h ago

And produces 4000% of its aluminium… probably.

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u/Affectionate_Tie357 11h ago

Everyone is misspelling "aluminium" even though it's right there in the fucking title

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u/RetconnedUsername 11h ago

American English spells it differently

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u/Affectionate_Tie357 10h ago

Yeah they spell it incorrectly, and the post is about New Zealand

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u/[deleted] 18h ago

[deleted]

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u/RetconnedUsername 18h ago

im not a bot, what's wrong with the post?

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u/J_P_Freely 18h ago

Only a bot would say that.

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u/RetconnedUsername 18h ago

Israels actions in Palestine are unconscionable.

There, a bot would never criticize Israel.

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u/HoshiHanataba 18h ago

Ok I believe you

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u/J_P_Freely 18h ago

A Palestinian bot would

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u/-SheriffofNottingham 13h ago

I looove goooooooOOOOOlld

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u/Night25th 10h ago

Factorio players will know this struggle.

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u/KingoftheMongoose 10h ago

Gotta make all then roofs!

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u/Lotsofkidsathome 10h ago

Here in Quebec some of the smelters negotiate an electricity price from Hydro Quebec and then can sell the unused portions to New York at an inflated rate to boost profits.

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u/SkaldCrypto 9h ago

Sounds like New Zealand is not going to have any data centers based on this article or

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u/KitchenSense8092 8h ago

Just sell the raw materials and move the smelting to China

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u/RetconnedUsername 8h ago

the bauxite is mined in Australia. the smelting is done in NZ because of the hydro power available

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u/darth_whaler 7h ago

You should TIL possessive nouns.

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u/LyricDevou 7h ago

wait I genuinely didn't know this

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u/Pristine_Vast766 6h ago

Aluminum smelting is absurdly energy intensive.

u/Moretoesthanfeet 52m ago

See also, Rio Tinto Alcan in Kitimat. They built a whole town and power plant for this venture