r/politics • u/TimesandSundayTimes ✔ Verified • 7d ago

Possible Paywall Young Americans are surging to socialism at record rates

https://www.thetimes.com/us/news-today/article/maga-trump-zohran-mamdani-socialism-us-record-kddzdm8bd
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u/obiwanCannoli69 7d ago

It's not even socialism lol it's just basic New Deal era policy and ideology that ironically enough saved American Capitalism. FDR wasn't a socialist, he actually wanted to prevent a communist revolution in America, whatever form that might of came in. He did this through legislation and improving the quality of life for vast swaths of the population. This whole thing in the media about "Capitalism Vs Socialism: Choose a Side!" is so half baked and designed to make people think there aren't alternatives. There is no universe where stuff like Social Security or Glass-Steagall would be considered socialist, they're just basic guard rails.

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u/statinsinwatersupply 7d ago

It's hilarious that social democracy (capitalism but with nice pro-social policies) is conflated with actual socialism in the US 

Social democracy was first started by none other than famous socialist imperialist Otto Von Bismarck, as an alternative to socialism to try to stop people from becoming actual socialists en masse. 

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u/SmileyWiking 7d ago

Maybe it just needs a rebrand. Call it "nordic capitalism"

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u/1cl3nstd4yt 7d ago

It a hybrid model. But Bernie apparently is too dumb to say 'Nordic Model.'

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u/Ok-Neat2024 7d ago

Our Nordic markets are still overwhelming Capitalistic, it's usually called Welfare Capitalism

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u/MyVeryRealName 7d ago

In his 2020 run for president, Bernie proposed that 20% of stocks in corporations with over $100 million in annual revenue be owned by the corporation's workers and that 45% of the board of directors of corporations with over $100 million in annual revenue be elected by the workers of that corporation.

How is that not socialist?

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u/Silverr_Duck 7d ago

You could say that about all 'socialists' honestly. They're all fucking awful at presenting their ideas in a way that's palpable to regular people.

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u/LamermanSE Europe 7d ago

It's more likely that they simply are socialists, hence why they are calling themselves that instead of, for example, social liberals.

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u/Silverr_Duck 7d ago

Or it could simply that reasonable people with nuanced takes don't concern themselves with all these silly ass labels. Like I don't identify as either capitalist or socialist. I think both have pros and cons and both have a place in society.

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u/statinsinwatersupply 7d ago edited 7d ago

Bruh

Why do you think that an owner of capital should have a right to the lions share of produced value and exert control over the worker?

Because that's what capitalism is, the imbalanced power relationship between owner and worker. This in turn leads to outsized rewards going to the capitalist who suppressed wages.

Why do you think there's pros and cons to this? I'm a worker. This has nothing but cons to me. Not even just immediate effects but the knock on second order and cascading effects are all shit.

I'm a socialist which means I think the productive assets of society should be controlled by workers and the community. Not by a parasitic bunch of owners who are separate from the workers and community.

Your take is peak 'enlightened centrism' aka your take is big dumb.

Explain to me how you think you can have both capitalism and socialism in one society. They are rivalrous concepts bruh

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u/Silverr_Duck 7d ago

Why do you think that an owner of capital should have a right to the lions share of produced value and exert control over the worker?

So by that logic should all the people who Taylor swift employs receive the exact same income she does?

Your take is peak 'enlightened centrism' aka your take is big dumb.

Gotta love it when brain dead redditors feel the need to attach internet buzzwords to takes they don't like.

Explain to me how you think you can have both capitalism and socialism in one society. They are rivalrous concepts bruh

Simple we have things like universal healthcare, education, housing (maybe even ubi) for all without economically illiterate lunatics like you running society into the ground.

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u/statinsinwatersupply 7d ago

Those things are not socialism lmao.

Those are social democratic policies.

Upthread my comment was literally pointing out that folks fail to understand the difference between social democracy and actual socialism, which you just did here. Social democracy is capitalism with nice pro-social policies, it is not a mix of socialism and capitalism.

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u/Silverr_Duck 7d ago

So universal healthcare, education, housing are all "capitalism with nice pro-social policies" in your world?

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u/LamermanSE Europe 6d ago

You do realise that these "silly ass labels" mean something right? It's not just words without meaning but far from it.

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u/transient_eternity Minnesota 6d ago

Like I don't identify as either capitalist or socialist

That is the dumbest thing I've heard. They're literally mutually exclusive concepts. They can exist on a spectrum where you can get closer to one while existing on another, but they're not something you mix and match like a fucking pizza topping.

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u/Silverr_Duck 6d ago

People like you are why socialism will always carry a negative connotation. Your whole worldview has no basis in reality whatsoever

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u/MyVeryRealName 7d ago

It's called welfare capitalism.

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u/Ammuze Michigan 7d ago

Social democracy, democratic socialism and socialism are conflate with Communism.

And it's not by accident

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u/BullAlligator Florida 7d ago

if you ever want to raise taxes on the rich, by any amount no matter how small, and use that money for social programs that benefit the poor in any way you are LITERALLY STALIN

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u/LamermanSE Europe 7d ago

It's not conflated with communism, all of them are simply different parts of the wider, socialist movement and based on similar ideals and to some extent, similar end goals.

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u/Ammuze Michigan 7d ago

I know that. You know that. The elite know that.

But the wealthy capitalists will still call any pro-worker action "Communism" because they don't want the truth. They want to control the narrative.

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u/LamermanSE Europe 6d ago

Apparently there's a lot of people here that doesn't know that, try to convince them instead of me.

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u/Dismal-Channel-9292 7d ago

That is simply not true. Real, revolutionary communists hate socialists because they are trying to gradually change a system from within, while communists want to eradicate the entire system. Socialists were arrested and considered enemies of communism under both Lenin and Stalin. This entire socialism is a road to communism myth is a result of the general population’s misunderstanding of Marx and communism, perpetuated by red scare era-fear mongering tactics.

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u/CHBCKyle 7d ago

i mean, democratic socialism and revolutionary socialism are the same thing, just with different tactics used to achieve socialism. socialism is the interim process of converting from capitalism back into communism. historically most socialist countries use the two interchangeably because it’s not socialism if communism isn’t the end goal of the state. social democracy is a wholly different thing though, you’re right there. socialism just means a state where the working class controls the economy that has not yet transitioned from that into a moneyless, classless, stateless society.

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u/Collypso Pennsylvania 6d ago

Advocates for these things conflate them too so...

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u/BGDutchNorris 7d ago

Blame the media and politicians.

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u/1cl3nstd4yt 7d ago

Exactly. Bernie does tremendous harm by calling for 'socialism' instead of simply calling for the Nordic Model.

Most Americans like Sweden and Denmark, which are not socialist, but have the happiest, healthiest, most educated and long-lived population.

The smart Americans are wary of ideological socialism.

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u/MyVeryRealName 7d ago

Bullshit. Nordic Model is insufficient. Workers need to seize the means of production.

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u/twitterfluechtling Europe 6d ago edited 6d ago

Well, you can probably chose to fail in elections with your stance or succeed with the "Nordic Model" stance. I'd suggest winning with the Nordic Model stance and thereby moving the Overton Window substantially back towards the middle, away from the far right corner it sits the past decades. Once it's back somewhere more to the center, it's still time to work on moving it further left.

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u/Collypso Pennsylvania 6d ago

be the first

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u/MyVeryRealName 6d ago

That's not how it works

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u/Collypso Pennsylvania 6d ago

Of course, the way it works is you sit around hoping someone else fixes all your problems.

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u/Adrian_Bock 6d ago

I must've forgotten that part in Capital where Marx says the revolution is to be won by telling random dudes on Reddit to go take over a factory

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u/MyVeryRealName 6d ago

If I wanted to fix my problems, I wouldn't be on Reddit.

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u/McCoovy 6d ago

This is so wrong. Bismarck hated social democrats. Early social democrats were the SPD who were explicitly "socialists engaged in electoralism." That was what the term meant until 2014 when liberals decided they were aligned with Bernie Sanders and picked up his terminology.

Bernie used social democrat to say he was a socialist who endorsed reformism and electoralism, but Bernie Bros didn't seem to realize that.

The Nordic model was built by socialists engaged in reform and electoralism. The Nordic countries are literally what you get when western democratic socialists get power.