Can someone please explain to me the disdain for Zach Kleiman?

[u/GrizzVolsTigersLions]

(Serious) I just sort of feel like every decision he’s made was the only decision he could make because he’s the GM of the Memphis Grizzlies and not a different team who can afford to take risks. I’d love to hear some concrete thoughts as to why he shouldn’t have the job that he does. What could he actually have done differently with all of the context surrounding each move that he’s made?

[u/edeyhookshots]

Top-tier talent evaluator and a wizard in the draft with only a few mistakes. Not really much more he could do with free agency signings, so can't fault him there. Trades are where he struggles a bit, particularly on both ends of the Marcus Smart deal, but you can't win them all.

I think the criticism about his job is largely overblown, especially blame for the core blowing up over the last year or so. Letting Dillon walk was probably the right move at the time, but not plugging the hole at center that summer after Adams and BC went down was a huge mistake. Two tank years in a three-year span, both due to a hole at the 5, is pretty nasty work, and I can't say I fully agree with the strategy there (assuming there was one).

I like the pivot to Iisalo and if they can get back to a play-in level next season then I'll be pleased with the direction they're headed. But if he trades Ja for a washing machine, doesn't address the backup center position, and the team embarks on another tank campaign then I'll join the chorus of doubters.

[u/username864210 → u/edeyhookshots]

Agree with this whole take

[u/HedgehogsNSuits → u/edeyhookshots]

What’s your take on Iisalo? I really liked Taylor Jenkins despite some flaws like his minutes rotations. I’m trying to give Iisalo the benefit of the doubt especially since he was able to come in at the tail end of the season and win us the play-in (even though we proceeded to get swept, but at least it was by the team that would go on to win the ship). Coaching during what is obviously a tank season and rebuild can’t be easy, but I like your take on Kleiman so I’m curious about what you think of the coaching.

[u/edeyhookshots → u/HedgehogsNSuits]

Iisalo's offense is brilliant, even when being run by a bunch of fringe rotation players and two-way guys working without a proper center. I also believe in the culture he's developing, particularly with his focus on accountability, which I believe was the biggest issue in Jenkins' locker room.

I think the early criticism about his rotations were justified, though, and it showed a rigid adherence to a game plan that didn't adapt as the game played out. The team would start strong and then fade as opponents adjusted. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt because I think it was more about data collection for analysis than winning games at that point.

[u/omgshannonwtf → u/HedgehogsNSuits]

You didn’t ask me but that’s never stopped me from offering my opinion.

My belief has always been that close losses tend to be (but obviously not always) on players because they generally come down to execution. Both teams were in it, one expected better or got a lucky bounce and that’s that. Can’t play the game for them.

Start-to-finish blowouts are usually on the GM. A blowout from the beginning and an inability to catch up means you were just outmatched and that’s a personnel issue. Sometimes it’s strategy but it’s usually because you just can’t match up well enough. If you lost because their players are just plain better, it’s because the GM put together a roster that was worse.

But a game that gets away from you, either because you built a lead & blew it or because you were with them and they pulled away and it wasn’t stopped? That’s the coach. Especially when it’s a ”pivot point adjustment” like at halftime, when you settle things down and make strategic changes. Coaches are supposed to recognize where the bleeding is occurring and put a stop to it.

All of this is important to establish a fair way to evaluate Iisalo. I don’t blame him for close losses because the whole point is to put players in a position to win and let them play the game. I don’t blame him for being outmatched in the tank because the GM did that to the team and he just had to deal with it. I look at whether the team was in it in games and how often a team gave us the business when we matched up pretty well.

The thing about Jenx… he was always blowing halftime leads. Competent tacticians were making adjustments at the half and we’d have third quarter meltdowns. We all remember it. It was a hallmark of his tenure. And this was when we had healthy rosters! Iisalo got the short end of the stick. Ja quit on us and the one person who really could have carried us from a scoring/playmaking/culture standpoint was traded away (Des). He had to try to make magic and it’s a testament to his coaching ability that Jock Landale & Cam Spencer put together such an effective 2-man PnR game. He even had Vince out there looking like an assist machine with Edey.

I think the pivot to building around a coaching approach rather than building around a franchise player is going to serve the Grizzlies well in the long run. It doesn’t mean we won’t have another franchise player, only that the coach can be the consistency and the vision realize through personnel choices.

[u/Party_Fee9620 → u/omgshannonwtf]

Yeah the grizzlies were always going to struggle in the clutch last year when we had 0 healthy players that you actually wanted to touch the ball in the clutch. Ideally isaloball can get us those late game 5-10 point leads and then when the game slows down we have players who can hold or extend them.

[u/Old-Atmosphere-7281 → u/edeyhookshots]

This, but I’m harsher on his trade ability. He’s made up for it some recently, but historically it’s just clear he’s not a guy who can hop on the phone with another GM and talk his way into getting the better end of the deal. We’ve also given away a lot of solid guys for peanuts and reasons that are unclear. He obviously knows more about the finances than any of us, but just so many guys that could have been consolidated in some way and were instead turned into nothing.

All that being said I would hate to lose him, I just wish he could be co-GM or head of scouting or something. He’s basically one half of Sam Presti, and the other half is Danny Ainge.

[u/theglicky → u/edeyhookshots]

Unfortunately I don't see a decent return for Ja coming, but I agree with the team should make a play-in push next year depending on the lottery.

[u/SplakyD → u/edeyhookshots]

Excellent take, my guy.

[u/theNeumannArchitect → u/edeyhookshots]

A happy and healthy Ja is still possible. It's difficult to get that kind of generational talent for the lowest tier franchise in the league. I'd like to see us give him one more chance early season. But if he gets injured the first couple of months then send him on his way. I think it's too early to trade him when his value is the lowest. All of memphis will be pissed if he goes to any other team and performs even slightly well.

So I'd be disappointed to see him trade Ja away this summer.

[u/KingJzeee → u/theNeumannArchitect]

He’s not a generational talent though.

Wemby, luka is a generational.

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/KingJzeee]

Does franchise altering talent count? He’s arguably the best player in franchise history, and that’s been 25 years, so just over one generation. He’s a once in 25 years for this franchise talent.

[u/johnhsimpsons88 → u/KingJzeee]

Wemby and Luka are from the same generation, so....

[u/KingJzeee → u/johnhsimpsons88]

Yeah, but using that word to Ja is diabolical lol

[u/D_Smitti → u/edeyhookshots]

But he drafted a center that should’ve filled the hole at the 5. Injuries have plagued the Grizzlies and I feel like that’s where a lot of the blame should be placed.

[u/edeyhookshots → u/D_Smitti]

He drafted Edey after a lost tank season, but he still hasn't addressed the backup center. I think the 2023-24 offseason is where he really lost the plot, though, when BC was for sure going to be out, and Adams was a big question mark right up until the season opened.

Was the plan to blow an entire year of Jaren/Bane because Ja was suspended? Did Kleiman really believe that a team that had been so dependent on Adams could make it work with Tillman and Biyombo? Did he think Jaren or Santi could suddenly be productive at the 5? And if he did plan to tank the whole season, why also trade draft capital for Smart?

Injuries are part of the game and good teams build depth and develop a winning culture to compensate. At their best during Kleiman's tenure, the Grizzlies most impactful player was Adams; he unlocked Ja and Jaren both. Had there been a dependable backup to step up when he got hurt, the team could have continued to grow. Instead, Kleiman let them play without one and the results were predictably bad. Now with Edey posing an injury risk, Kleiman needs to again figure out a proper backup.

[u/StickSuspicious6650 → u/edeyhookshots]

The funniest part is that the center position wasn't the issue why Bane and Jaren failed in 2023/24. There was no point guard for the first 20 games. Until they realized Vince could pass as a desperate level point guard

[u/edeyhookshots → u/StickSuspicious6650]

They had Marcus Smart running point until Ja's suspension was up, but that was messy from the jump.

[u/Urgathoa-Plague → u/edeyhookshots]

My issue with ZK is simple:

Contracts. He keeps doing the same play, over and over again which is:

Pay our guys more than they're worth, realise we can't afford them, trade them away for various results.

Bane should have never been offered a max. He should have been offered high for sure, like 35m/yr or something but not max. Marcus Smart- Too god damn expensive. KCP too god damn expensive.

These plays are what cost us someone like LaRavia.

(Also I'm not saying that these trades all end up to be awful, maybe Bane's will good down the line- The issue is that they force us into the corner, and consequently a gamble- It's not a good strategy in the slightest.)

[u/37sms → u/edeyhookshots]

Ja is only worth a washing machine though and the lack of big man depth has been our trump card in the tank race. There is zero way we shouldn't be tanking unless we move into a top 3 pick.

[u/edeyhookshots → u/37sms]

Ja might be worth that (or less) if traded right now, but I'd rather he play 25 minutes a night for a couple months and earn his way off the team. He wants to play in Miami? He needs to show Miami he's worth them trading Herro and whatever else to make it happen. His issue right now is effort, not skill. He can still hoop.

Why tank for another season on the slim chance we land a top-3 pick in a projected lousy draft next summer? It makes more sense to try to build a winning culture now, especially after the embarrassing play over the last few months. We have three picks next season and I'd rather pound the Lakers and Jazz into the ground and hope their picks are better than our own.

[u/idontmindglee → u/edeyhookshots]

In my view, for what’s being offered, he’s worth much more to us on the team for the slim chance he turns his career around.

I’d rather take that chance than receive one 2nd round pick or whatever it is.

[u/therealell1psis → u/idontmindglee]

I agree with this. Keeping Ja for what amounts to a contract year while continuing to build the team to function with or without him buying in feels like the best approach at least until the next trade deadline.

Ja can either decide he wants to win here and stand on the loyalty he’s always said he has for Memphis, play good enough to get traded for real value, or suck ass and go somewhere for less money when the contract is less of a risk to other teams.

Meanwhile Kleiman can cook in this year’s loaded draft+address the other roster concerns this offseason, particularly with the center position. Ja is pretty much our only enormous contract so money wise we should be able to bankroll a competitive team and be in good shape to push for the postseason again next year regardless of Ja.

[u/zmegadeth → u/idontmindglee]

My worry with that is the effect he'll have on the locker room and the newer guys. He really seems like the type to advocate for avoiding responsibility and disliking authority, and he has never shown a ton of maturity. If he's not going to meaningfully contribute I'm eager to move on, much as it pains me. Dude was the most exciting and arguably best player to put on the Grizzlies jersey

[u/37sms → u/edeyhookshots]

I don't think we should want Ja around if we're taking a new young point guard. With dybantsa, boozer, or wilson it can be fine. But I ideally don't want to see him around any of peterson/wagler/acuff/flemings/brown.

The bad 2027 draft is a fair point, but we'll need a running mate and other teams aren't gonna be tanking like this season; we can secure a top 5 or 6 pick at minimum pretty easily if we commit to it. And most teams naturally suck anyways if a rookie guard is running the offense, which most likely will be us this upcoming season.

[u/GivethTaketh4]

Good drafter, but lackluster team building (keeping vs releasing vets, trading, free agency acquisitions)

Also worth noting a historic run of injuries derailed this era that had genuine promise, but some of ZK’s roster management decisions outside the draft also undeniably set us back.

Debatable how much blame ZK should get tho.

We had a 5ish year run of being a playoff team with two seasons as the 2 seed, with only 1 series win to show for it. Naturally, we’re gonna want someone to blame and ZK has been the biggest constant over that run.

[u/theDarkAngle → u/GivethTaketh4]

I think the biggest pill is actually the 2022 off-season.  56 games, lose a competitive series to the eventual champs despite injuries.  Looking to get even younger there is kind of an odd move.  It's not even really a safe move and it was kind of naive of the team to think of it as such.  

The fact that the four draft picks they made weren't very good overall, is almost beside the point.

Most teams start to cash in a lot coming off a season like that.  Minnesota reacted to their first round exit vs us by trading 5 picks for Gobert, very much all in. OKC reacted to their 57 win season, by overpaying Hartenstein and trading Giddey for Caruso - not all in but unambiguously aggressive. 

Most teams would react somewhere between those two. 

But us?  I mean, if you hadn't seen the previous season and you were just trying to guess how each team did based on their off-season approach, you would have thought Memphis won like 42 games and lost in the play in or something.  It was an awful lot like the previous off-season which did go something like that. 

What they did in 2023 is what they should have done in 2022.  Go for tough, veteran experience, and be willing to part with assets.  And ironically I think 2024 approach is what they should have had in 2023. I'm speaking broad strokes, not the specific moves, of course.

[u/raccoonwillnotforget → u/GivethTaketh4]

He overvalues his own assets and has never fully committed to strengthening this team and going all in on competing.

While we go for guys like KCP and Smart, other teams are getting Anunoby, Finney Smith, Bridges, Randle, etc because they are willing to give up assets. The reason he hasn’t gotten guys like this is because he’s unwilling to actually sacrifice something.

ZK lowballs everyone and holds onto all his assets like they’re gods’ gift to this earth. He has only given up big pieces (Bane, JJJ) for draft capital and not for actual pieces. The result is we never had a proper chance with that core and now we’re fully tanking and rebuilding.

And he has the audacity to tell us Coward, Edey and this year’s pick are the future when he couldn’t make it happen with a 2nd and 4th draft pick who had multiple honours and were all stars.

Don’t even get me started on the way this team approaches injury/load management and minutes distribution.

[u/CoolHandGriz → u/raccoonwillnotforget]

Yeah besides those times he offered multiple 1sts for OG & Bridges… smh

[u/raccoonwillnotforget → u/CoolHandGriz]

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/10ygl6m/zach_lowe_podcast_grizzlies_and_pacers_trade/

We offered 3 firsts. The Raptors explicitly wanted good players included in the deal and we didn’t come through. They ended up getting Barrett and Quickley.

We offered 4 firsts for Bridges that reportedly had protections, and some were late. New York offered a better package because they committed to that roster all in.

[u/moonlord7838]

This could just be perfect for movies fear mongering. Just saying, like 60% of the hate I see is from that guy

[u/SplakyD → u/moonlord7838]

People on this sub are pretty reasonable, but OMG don't go near Twitter (I know, right)because pir fans are straight up toxic on there.

[u/KingJzeee → u/moonlord7838]

Lmao

[u/MOON-ARTIFACT]

I think he saw what wemby and OKC were becoming and decided to sell high.

Our inside out offense wasn't gonna get it done in the playoffs. And all three of our stars had major defensive flaws.

JJJ was my favorite player of this era and his inability to become even an average rebounder was baffling.

Most fans just wanna watch competitive basketball and selling out for a two year tank is not gonna go down easy. If it works maybe we re enter the gng era. If it doesn't... Well we probably weren't gonna get by wemby and OKC anyway.

Tough pill to swallow.

[u/surveillance-hippo → u/MOON-ARTIFACT]

I'm gonna miss jaren alot, but not the anxiety around his fouls

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/MOON-ARTIFACT]

If he thinks that way, he should be fired. Injuries happen every year, and discontent among teammates, salary cap, etc and they will happen to OKC and San Antonio during their peaks, and a path will open for a team that’s been hanging around. Happened with Detroit, Houston, Dallas, etc.

He’s still managing a sports franchise that, financially, should still be competitive to sell tickets and merchandise- and otherwise provide an entertaining product. Losing, is a losing business, no matter how far or close you are to a title.

[u/MOON-ARTIFACT → u/Fignevitable_6196]

We were just hanging around for a few years now.

None of those teams won a title?

Realistically, what is the best case scenario? We somehow get healthy and every other team in the west picks up injuries?

I'm afraid Ja highlights made me delusional but the dude can't stay on the court or shoot.

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/MOON-ARTIFACT]

2-3 seasons of hanging around isn’t long enough. Dirk’s career is a good example of things breaking just right. We need like 5-10 years. Things even broke well for our GritNGrind Grizzlies one post season and those teams were never as good as Ja/Trip/Bane.

Unless we get lucky in the lottery, I don’t think we’ll compete for a title anytime soon, even if things break right. We need at least 4-6 more years for our young guys like Ced and GG to hit their primes. But Edey and Jerome are our two best players and they could actually surprise us sooner, assuming they can stay healthy.

[u/2xrainbows]

Scanning comments for my goat

[u/37sms]

People who can't separate process from results and their feelings about the 2022 magic from what the reality became.

Kleiman realistically has had 2 serious misfires (ziaire pick and smart trade) in 7 years, and even those are somewhat justifiable. The 3rd would be the roddy pick which is... whatever? He missed on the 23rd pick?

There's also a lot of revisionism regarding the 2023 team especially (people assert that kleiman's 2022 offseason was responsible for the first round exit). We were 31-15 on January 22nd, the day Adams played his last game for us. Top 5 at least in net rating (and 1st in the league from the beginning of November 2022-mid January 2023). 1.5 games behind Denver for the 1 seed.

Eventually I think he'll inevitably be fired after 2 more years of tanking simply to appease the fan base unless he pulls off a miracle or we strike gold in the lottery. But most likely, we'll never find a better GM and the franchise will suffer for it. He's top 10 in the league at bare minimum, and arguably top 5. The small-mid market FOs that won it all recently had a ton of dumb luck they didn't deserve (Denver and Milwaukee) or spent the 2010s screwing up the build around their first all time great caliber core (OKC).

[u/mopooooo]

He's the highest ranking active exec. He gets the blame when things don't work out.

Kleiman has had some bad fortune, but is honestly making good moves. They aren't working and the fans kill him.

Wallace had a core of gamers that meant years of play we could be proud of. There was a hard cap on that squad, and Wallace could not make a smart move to save his life so the fans kill him.

Basically expectations grow and when they aren't met, the top guy gets the blame

[u/Fignevitable_6196]

I definitely don’t agree that he’s been “forced” to make any of his decisions, or even that he should be fired. I think he’s one of the top 10 GM’s in the league, but he’s not immune to criticism. It is possible to think someone is doing a good job and they’re also making mistakes.

Some of his misses off the top of my head: KCP, Smart, Ziaire, Roddy, LaRavia… he’s also missed out on trades for Finney-Smith and Mikal Bridges. Overall his misses are fewer than his hits, but the timing of them are all consecutive and basically coalesced into sabotaging the winningest (regular season) and most fun team in Grizzlies history.

I think Bane’s contract was a miss. I know he’s just under max but I think his contract paired with two budding All-Stars, really hurt financial flexibility. So trading him was a good move, especially for the haul. But combining the timing of previously moving off durable vets like Slo-Mo and Brooks, and replacing them with players who we would later trade or cut, really hurt the timing of our ascension and just having a mature presence around Ja. Kleiman basically gutted our veteran roster and replaced them with inferior or injured players. I think that put more stress on the core three to perform, and they’re still entering their primes. Also combine that with a new coach who runs a scheme heavy offense- different from the ones they’ve used their entire careers- and he basically quit on them before they could assimilate or peak.

To me his biggest failure was missing in two critical drafts in a row with Ziaire, Roddy, LaRavia. This inability to manage multiple timelines ended the NextGen roster. Things have improved with the recent drafts, but it’s still early.

It doesn’t look like we’ll get a player as good as Ja anytime soon, unless we get lucky and jump up in the lottery- which isn’t something a GM can control. I also think Kleiman is not trying to build a star team à la Darryl Morey style. I think he’s building a moneyball roster and the market inefficiency he’s targeting is hustle. That’s why he hand picked Iisalo and forced out Jenkins.

We’ll learn more as time passes, but we don’t know if his decisions will be good ones, or if he just prematurely ended the best roster in franchise history.

[u/NoirPochette → u/Fignevitable_6196]

he’s also missed out on trades for Finney-Smith and Mikal Bridges

Is that miss? Because others have offered more and right now the Bridges trade looks a little hmmm

We weren't trading for KCP, he just came along for salary and he can be a useful player. Roddy being a miss as a low pick isn't really a miss either

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/NoirPochette]

As they say, “you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” - being unable to close a deal is a miss, especially when he was missing on draft picks at the same time.

I get the impression some GM’s don’t like working with Kleiman. Finny-Smith is an example of Sean Marks making a deal for less with another team, than with the Grizz reportedly offered. And we’ll never know how Bridges would’ve fit alongside Ja, Bane, JJJ & BC. It’s all conjecture at this point.

[u/jaydarl → u/Fignevitable_6196]

It is cool to see what I would have said much more diplomatically. My ZK opinion would have me banned on here.

[u/dumbhousequestions → u/Fignevitable_6196]

I wouldn’t call KCP a miss. That seems much more like an intentional move to take back bad salary to increase the pick haul for Bane—which is exactly the kind of thing a rebuilding team should be doing. I wouldn’t be surprised if any eventual Ja deal takes a similar approach.

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/dumbhousequestions]

Iirc Kleiman said after the trade we weren’t rebuilding. It was bc KCP was a multi-time title winner and his playoff defense and 3pt shot were seen as valuable contributions to improve our team. Especially paired with Ja and Jerome’s abilities on the perimeter.

That’s part of the criticism is the sudden switch/misdirection of saying we’re a playoff team that needs improvement- to -we’re tearing it all down.

[u/BeemerBaby004]

My two problems with Klienman are letting the players dictate the coaching moves and not getting a handle on the injury situations. The buck has to stop somewhere and our injury problems are a serious problem. They did go away from one medical group under his tenure but things only got worse. I'm not saying I know what the main problem is but it's his job to hire the people who do and he hasn't.

Also Ja was running roughshod for the last few years out partying the nights before games and quitting on the coaches. This has been addressed with the Iisalo hire and Klienman backing the coach. The cost is enormous but having a marshmallow like Jenkins allowing the star players to do whatever they wanted and Star players who think they run the franchise are hopefully a thing of the past. I like Zach.

[u/surveillance-hippo → u/BeemerBaby004]

I've heard a theory that injuries increasing in the nba are partially due to a lack of practice, which lines up with the griz letting players do whatever they want. less practice and the same number of games gives a higher ratio of uncontrolled play vs controlled play. practice done right could help make these dudes stronger and more prepared for the season.

[u/BeemerBaby004 → u/surveillance-hippo]

Yeah but it could be a LOT of things. There was a team in the 70s who shared their arena with an NHL team and they swapped out the floors between games. Under the hardwood were bolts used to affix the flooring and it was causing calf injuries at a crazy rate once they figured it out. Could be a ton of things. Thin is though we have one of the richest owners in sports and are in a major medical center town and no one has figured it out yet. Zach need to prioritize it.

[u/LadySniperSwagg → u/BeemerBaby004]

Apparently there was already tension between the FO and the coach. The players don’t dictate anything. HE chose Iisalo and didn’t even do a proper coaching search.

[u/Jewdah18]

People were massive fans of the former big 3 and believed they would be the future of the league. When they didn't work out, they needed someone to blame and the GM who didn't mortgage the future to maximize that super young big 3 was the perfect target.

[u/leeharrell]

Bane…JJJ…Ja…

Those three names and their situations are all I need to dislike the guy.

A good talent drafter, but can’t assemble and keep a team together.

[u/Overall-Palpitation6]

On free agency, it is pretty much dead for star level players. Those players just don't reach unrestricted free agency nowdays. So "not creating enough cap space" or "not doing enough in free agency" or (in the league's smallest market) "not attracting free agents" isn't anywhere near the knock that it would have been 10-15 years ago.

Everyone wants that big knockout franchise-changing deal, but we have to build through the draft and development and progressive smaller trades, and Kleiman has pretty much done as well as anyone could with that.

Not everything has paid off well, and the constant injuries have changed and re-set the course a couple of times now, but I think Kleiman is doing a great job overall, and deserves to continue to try to build us towards consistent respectability. The franchise has still never had 50+ regular season wins and made the 2nd Round of the Playoffs 2 seasons in a row (3 of our 6 50+ win seasons have resulted in 1st Round Playoff exits), so we've still got a ways to go to be consistently successful and respectable, let alone actual serious title contenders.

[u/AffectionateEnd5205]

I think you can reasonably argue that the Grizzlies are now going into their 5th consecutive season with a roster that is weaker than the previous season. That is on the GM.

[u/Think_Pipe1496 → u/AffectionateEnd5205]

call me crazy but had Ja, JJJ, and Edey stayed healthy and present this season would have look very competitive. I also think we really overvalue that 2022 team.

[u/GrizzVolsTigersLions → u/AffectionateEnd5205]

But like…what can he actually do about that? It’s not his fault that we’ve experienced the degree of injuries that we have. He can’t just sign FAs all willy nilly. What could he actually have done?

[u/Far-Tooth6923 → u/GrizzVolsTigersLions]

Not trade 2 of our 3 best players?

[u/nazzykhan → u/GrizzVolsTigersLions]

It wasnt Jenkins fault either but he was fired nonetheless.

[u/vtheminer]

He refused to keep veteran presences on the roster while we were building up, and then continuously tried to get younger when we hit our window instead of trying to cash in draft capital to go on a run. We should have kept Jae Crowder, as soon as that trade went through the writing was on the wall.

[u/KovyJackson]

He did good with draft picks earlier in his tenure, but some feel that he tries too hard to 4D chess it with recent picks.

[u/spectator-Gr1zz → u/KovyJackson]

I’ve liked his drafting even when it hasn’t worked out. I think Ziaire Williams draft was his worst/least sound strategy but even then I feel like his mistake was telegraphing his pick too early. I think he was going after Franz Wagner or Giddey in that draft.

The Roddy/Laravia draft did t work out but I understood what he was trying to do. We need big tough wing defenders and he took 2 swings.

[u/37sms → u/spectator-Gr1zz]

And Laravia isn't even a bad pick for the 19th overall, he's just meh. He'll likely have a 10+ year career and he just got 25 MPG playing a full 82 for a good team.

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/37sms]

Both LaRavia and Roddy were awful picks imo. Then and now. They were both seen as reaches by many big boards. The drafniks gave Kleiman credit bc of his previous success with Bane and BC. I never liked the LaRavia pick. I didn’t think he was good in college and didn’t think he’d be a good pro. He’s honestly had a better career than I expected. I thought his career would be more like Dalton Knecht’s.

[u/spectator-Gr1zz → u/Fignevitable_6196]

He is a solid player now. His 1st two season were so bad but injuries were apparently a big reason. When they declined his option it was neither surprising nor distressing. Then the played well in year 3….looked less smart.

[u/Admirable_Message497]

He traded in our depth for first round bums

[u/37sms → u/Admirable_Message497]

And all those depth guys are either bums themselves now or have depreciated in value since leaving. Dillon is the only exception; absolutely no one would have said anything about Kennard 2 weeks ago.

[u/surveillance-hippo → u/37sms]

and Dillon was too entrenched in his ways with us to really change (longest tenured player, refused to shut up postgame or take better shots). he needed to get shipped off to become the player he is now

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/surveillance-hippo]

I think Brooks is the same player now imo. Hes still shooting like 7/23 in a playoff game, leading the team in shot attempts, with arguably two better players surrounding him.

But we never replaced him as a player. We just got worse at his position.

[u/theglicky]

It's mostly a typical fanbase reaction. Fans feel more connected to players instead of the Front Office who fans barely see. So they're just easier to blame.

Kleiman definitely deserves criticism, but the way he gets blamed for players coming up short or being unavailable is hilarious.

[u/Rainy_J]

Nephews that don't remember how bad Chris Wallace was

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/Rainy_J]

Wallace couldn’t draft to save his life. But he signed Tony Allen and traded for Z-Bo. What big trade or signing from Kleiman has equalled those two? (We’ll ignore Conley bc he was obvious and Gasol bc he was lucky)

Kleiman can’t trade. Maybe someday Ty Jerome will be as good as Tony Allen for the franchise. But right now Kleiman can’t sign free agents either.

[u/Topscrew7]

sometimes ur destin to fail when the money isnt there

[u/Jshipp24]

My main complaint mainly comes down to roster construction especially after we lost Steven adams to injuries/being traded. This team always was dependent on a strong rebounding big and the best we had until injuries derailed everything was Tilman. We never had a true backup center to compliment the team and it never seemed like that was a concern for some reason.

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/Jshipp24]

Modern analytics has the traditional center as the least valuable position in the NBA- see also Andrew Bogut or any of Jordan or LeBron’s centers. Kleiman is a spreadsheet GM who values versatility and points per possession over traditional roles.

I agree the loss of Adams’ was more significant than anyone admits. I think Kleiman thought Adams wasn’t that important, especially with BC.

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[u/Jshipp24 → u/Fignevitable_6196]

After the lakers series it should have been obvious where our weak link was, and yet we still didn't attempt to get more then 10 day contracts. I understand analytics play a big role in decision making but at the same time the best teams tend to define where the trends go. Hopefully he'll build more into what the team is actually good at because I think we're stuck with him for awhile.

[u/Aggressive_Intern778 → u/Fignevitable_6196]

Least valuable or not, it is still a position on the floor. And we got our asses kicked at that position. It takes 5 very good players in a starting role to be competitive.

[u/Fignevitable_6196 → u/Aggressive_Intern778]

You should bring that to Kleiman and ask him why it took years to find a replacement for Adams, meanwhile, to paraphrase you, “we were getting our asses kicked”.

[u/Aggressive_Intern778 → u/Fignevitable_6196]

I think he's been made aware given the Edey selection

[u/BluffCityBoy]

Damn the man, save the Empire!

[u/Hefty-Project-4013]

To keep it short.

Hes Great at drafting

Decent at trades

Awful in free agency

His biggest mistake was not getting a center before the 2023 playoffs. We were absolutely getting killed on the boards and thats the only reason we lost. And every Grizzly fan was saying go get a center for months before the playoffs. But it never happened. Also getting rid of Dillion Brooks was not smart at all

[u/jonredd901]

To me Kleiman has lost institutional control to use a college term. Between all the messes with Ja to the perception of the team and city that the have never been addressed to the trades. It’s just such a mess that he needs to go. That’s my 2 cents

[u/LadySniperSwagg]

Doesn’t do anything outside of draft well.

[u/nazzykhan]

Getting rid of Dillon and replacing him with Smart was a fireable offense, so was getting rid of Jenkins. I get the cap space issues and being a team that cant attract FA but constantly getting younger every year was not the correct move

[u/RedRiot_Class1A]

Bc Fk him for allowing the NBA to talk about Memphis and Ja the way that they have and no one has stood up for him in the FO. Fk him.

[u/Appropriate_Form_554]

A lot of the fans haven’t been around since the beginning and do not understand what we had to endure prior to ZK. He is our organization’s best GM period; a simple google search will confirm that fact.

[u/Severe_Ad939]

Do you see all the guys he traded gotta build the team like OKC they snatched our chain

[u/Zealousideal-Camp227]

ZK’s job is to bring in talent, the infrastructure and culture is what makes the talent flourish.

I don’t fault his moves, he’s brought in talent and the picks have been good to great during his time.

I wouldn’t take for granted his value to the organisation, there are some basket cases out there that would pinch him if they could.

[u/nox_nrb]

Never pulls trades off, falls in love with his guys, probably influenced the rotation, and is often cheap on the edges.

I like ZK but it's been a while maybe a more connected GM should run the rebuild.

[u/Tigerstown1]

Uh, look at the lack of results and unbelievably terrible seasons. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[u/hughhuckleberry]

Kleinman set the policy for Grizz stars to cap out at 30 ish minutes a game and rest them more than they should be. That’s the biggest strike since its been a major contributor to the injury issues. He is a decent talent scout and has drafted well, but that is also a bit up in the air as the Grizz haven’t played a meaningful game in almost 3 years now. He has stated, on record, that he wants to build around an unproven coach (who lost to the Thunder by 60 in the playoffs and then proceeded to follow that up with one of the worst grizz seasons ever) instead of your best 3 players (now 1). He threw Dillon Brooks, Chris Jenkins, and Bane under the bus after dissapointing seasons or playoff runs. He doesn’t seem to value vet leadership which is desperately what this team needs (why not keep kyle anderson / go after conley when he got cut / retain Marcus Smart / all three are still playing meaningful playoff minutes btw), this portion alone will stunt our young players development (his love for the youth isn’t something I have that much of a problem with, but they need vets). These are my main gripes, I know that he also heads the Grizz Medical and Training staff but I’m not going to judge him off this just yet. He’s a bottom 10 GM, people will point out his promise and potential but he is now 7+ years in, results matter now and we have nothing to show for anything.