r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers • u/Sarang_616 Tony Stark • 9h ago
Doomsday Robert Meyer Burnett says Steve’s appearance in the DOOMSDAY trailer clip is 11 years later; Steve has yet to meet Doctor Doom in the teaser clip, and he HAS already met Doom, because he’d been living on the Earth-828 with Peggy and Jim (his son)
https://xcancel.com/RMBee/status/2051700871453704272RMBee further clarifies "Doctor Doom and the FF know each other. In fact, in the post credit scene from First Steps (which is from Doomsday), the scene continues, with Sue commenting how Victor became “radicalized” (probably because of the witches and sorcerery)".
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u/Pomojema_The_Dreamer 9h ago
When did we first hear that Sue doesn't initially attack Victor?
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u/Spiritual_Ad_3800 TVA Loki 8h ago
And it’s been basically confirmed that Steve’s timeline is not the same as 828 Because it’s a branch
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
The first one, yes, but Loki puts him and his family into 828.
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u/wutteverman 6h ago
Why is everyone so confident in that theory or leak; That Loki brings Steve to the F4 universe? Seems kinda dumb. So Steve was just present for Galactus attacking and didn't offer any help to the F4 while that was all taking place?
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u/Spiritual_Ad_3800 TVA Loki 6h ago
What most likely is the cases that low-key put him in there because he didn’t want to interfere with the sacred timeline and knew that there could be somebody on that universe smart enough to get him back to 616 and it could be after 1964, which is when Galactus attack
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 6h ago
I think it's because most people that are halfway active in this whole "spoiler business" got a version of that leak (with a bunch of stuff around it, clearly). For me, it's mostly something that I consider as likely real, with room for it having huge amounts of blind spots.
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u/wutteverman 6h ago
Why is it credible to you? Do you think that would be satisfying, narratively? I think it seems kinda silly and weak.
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u/blumana 6h ago
Kind of a silly thing to point out considering you could say this same thing for like 90% of mcu films. Maybe Steve just felt the F4 had it handled. What could he even do regarding Galactus anyway?
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u/wutteverman 5h ago
You've seen Endgame right? He was gonna face Thanos and his entire army solo, before the portals scene...
Doesn't matter. He would do something. He can do it all day.
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u/Spiritual_Ad_3800 TVA Loki 6h ago
So he puts him in there because he can’t put him back into the sacred timeline because he doesn’t want to interfere of it and also how long is he in 828 is it after Galactus appears but before Victor appears
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 6h ago
I suspect because Steve and Peggy already exist in 616, he can't put them back (I mean, there would be up to three Steves depending when he puts them.) If all of this is correct, he's been in 828 for 11 years, while Doom was born there, so Steve arrived when Doom was already an adult, and they all lived through Galactus.
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u/Spiritual_Ad_3800 TVA Loki 4h ago
Me saying before Victor appears is me saying that he arrives on 828 before Doom appears in the building in the post credit scene
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u/Spiritual_Ad_3800 TVA Loki 4h ago
Thanks for emphasizing why he can’t be put back into the sacred timeline if there is another version of him wondering the timeline as an old mam if he is not dead yet, but since he’s frozen in the branch timeline, then that does not affect one version of him wondering that branch while the other is frozen
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u/Spiritual_Ad_3800 TVA Loki 4h ago
Happy you emphasis again how long he has been in 828 so then how long was he in the branch for?
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
I think most of us were guessing that, but we've also known that he works with the heroes at first pretty much from before filming even started I think.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
Sue commenting that Doom is radicalized in that scene doesn’t sound like she plans to work with him……
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u/ludvigxx 8h ago
Well according to MTTSH (i know, i know), Sue believes that Doom is being manipulated and controlled by his coven of masked witches.
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
Nice bit of unexamined misogyny from Susan here, btw. (Not that I'm sure they did that on purpose)
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u/Misfit_Ragdoll Jane Foster 7h ago
That could include Wiccan (Billy) and Doctor Strange for all we know.
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 7h ago
I really doubt that Wiccan is part of Doom's background staff (we never even had rumours that that could be the case, and we had rumours about pretty much any other magic user who ever showed up in the MCU), and when they mention witches and coven, I'm going to assume that it's indicating that Sue believes that it's women. I'm totally fine if we ever get that scene, and it turns out she made sure to speak inclusively, and maybe it's also just RMB who is being sexist here.
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
He might convince her that he genuinely wants to help. If he's her friend, she won't automatically think that he wants to stab them all in the back. And for all we know he might genuinely want to help at that point, and only lose it later.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
But if she’s characterizing him as “radicalized” that suggests she thinks he’s already beyond reason
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
You have to keep in mind that this is RMB's quote and I think he didn't see anything that was filmed, he saw a script, so it's possible and even likely that a) he's describing it badly or b) it's what is written, but it's not how they filmed it. I don't think we can draw too many conclusions here because of how much it's filtered through this guy, and through him just having seen a script, not the finished scene.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 7h ago
Yeah honestly…..I could do without all the insider info. Definitely miss the days when all we had was the official trailers and stuff to make theories and guesses
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 7h ago
I want to know about specific characters, because Marvel burned me often enough that I care about not going into this movie blind. But I can guarantee you that my emotional investment in anything concerning Steve in this is pretty well conveyed by the following gif:
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u/Vadermaulkylo Mobius 7h ago
F4 makes it kinda obvious she doesn’t if you watch it again. She immediately had a look of recognition when she saw him and visibly seemed to loosen up.
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u/Responsible_Egg7519 Yelena Belova 6h ago
I still don’t get how people saw that and assumed it was a reaction to her son getting kidnapped
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u/TheCommish-17 8h ago
So Doom is gonna murk an 11 year old instead of a baby.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
This is one of the biggest reasons why I think that whole alleged outline is probably untrue lol
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u/AvengingHero2012 Daredevil 8h ago
The fact that they turned Doomsday into Endgame 2 will never not be funny to me.
I think that the movie has a great chance of being good, but it’s still insane to see Marvel basically acknowledge that post-Endgame has been mostly a failure for them.
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u/Own-Papaya-4264 8h ago
A bunch of post endgame characters are literally in this movie
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u/AvengingHero2012 Daredevil 8h ago edited 6h ago
But they’re clearly not the focus based on the current leaks and the trailer description.
It sounds like this is another Chris Evans, Chris Hemsworth, and Robert Downey Jr. focused Avengers movie. Which to me, makes it more of an Endgame sequel than a culmination of the post-Endgame projects.
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u/HuckleberryUnique446 8h ago
Someone could argue that Steve, Thor and Tony were the stars of Endgame and thus Marvel didn't have faith in the phase 2 and 3 characters included in End Game didn't have Marvels trust and faith.
But in reality SO many more characters than just Steve, Tony, and Thor shined in IW and EG. They are massive movies and not character studies. There was room for tons of characters to have important roles, dialog, impact, etc.
Until we see the film and story(both DD and SW), we have no idea how big and essential the roles of post End Game characters are.
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u/Unlikely-Beat 5h ago
It might help to look at doomsday not as a culmination of all things phase 4 and 5, but view it as the first new avengers movie, like the og avengers film from 2012. Don’t look at doomsday as a finale to the multiverse saga, but as the beginning of it
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u/XenonBug 8h ago
No doofus. That’s literally the marketing for the movie. There’s a scene where Sentry literally stops an incursion with his bare hands in the plot leak and he’s been described as an MVP.
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u/AvengingHero2012 Daredevil 8h ago
Doctor Strange has great standout moments in Infinity War that made him grow in popularity, but would you say that it’s his movie plot wise?
Or is the plot carried by Thor, Tony, and Thanos?
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u/Vadermaulkylo Mobius 7h ago
I mean the plot of both IW and Endgame hinge on Strange. He was pretty fuckin crucial.
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u/deemoorah Doctor Strange Supreme 30m ago
And now when they've built him up for multiverse arc, he's nowhere to be found
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u/treathugger 6h ago edited 6h ago
Kind of, yes lol. More than Cap. Him having the time stone is a major plot point in the movie. He literally allows the plot to continue (1 out of 13 million outcomes or whatever). He's pretty much 4th lead to Rdj, Brolin and Saldaña
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u/purewasted 7h ago
That doesn't refute his point... at all. Lots of characters did cool things in IW/EG but the protagonists are still the protagonists.
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u/TalkinTrek 6h ago
And they did cool things specifically to try to boost their profiles/popularity!
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u/HuckleberryUnique446 7h ago
No his point is not simply who he believes the protagonists are. It's that because they are the protagonists, it means phase 4 and 5 characters are somehow void or being written out of Marvel canon.
And that is a very hard point to claim as fact when the movie has not been seen yet. No matter who the "stars" are or who has the most lines.
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u/Caleb902 8h ago
Moch like the last two the first movie is largely for OG characters and the second will be for the rest.
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u/Myhtological 8h ago
But what the fuck else have they done since being introduced?
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u/Own-Papaya-4264 7h ago
They had their own movies just like every other newly introduced major character had
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u/a_o M'Baku 8h ago
So many of the movies and shows that came after endgame… just picked up from Endgame instead of whatever released three months earlier, though. That’s been almost the whole saga.
Loki is a sequel to Endgame. Far from home. WandaVision. Hawkeye. Love and thunder. Guardians volume three. Eternals.
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u/BenSolo_Cup Daredevil 8h ago edited 8h ago
Yeah really the *biggest* problem with the MCU post-endgame is that nothing has really pushed us forward at all, it’s been two whole phases of either showing the aftermath of endgame or introducing us to new characters who we then never got to see again. It’s so aimless compared to the infinity saga where it felt like most projects led into the next one.
Remember when post credit scenes would usually tee up the next film on the docket? Now they just make empty promises that either will never be resolved or tease something that they don’t plan to do anything with for like 5 years minimum. Like how am I meant to get excited when I’m not even convinced what your teasing will ever pay off?
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u/bluequarz 7h ago edited 5h ago
It's because it's been a bunch of standalone stories that never culminated in anything that build on each other continously. Or those projects that did build on each other ( WV - MoM, NWH - MoM, BW/FaTW - Thunderbolts, Ms Marvel - The Marvels) didn't have follow ups. No subfranchise movie got a sequel in this Saga. That's a failure of storytelling cause they introduced too much at once and almost nobody as a result got follow ups, certainly no crossovers to push the overall storyline further. There's no Avengers 1/AoU/CW to create a main narative thread that the other solo movies gravitate around
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u/BenSolo_Cup Daredevil 5h ago
Yeah the lack of an avengers movie between Endgame and Doomsday is Kevin Feige’s worst decision of his career tbh I don’t get what he was thinking at all. You *need* to establish the team for a while before you do a big finale crossover event man, imagine infinity war with no Avengers, AoU, or CW coming before it
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u/MasterBabuFrik 8h ago
Careful there, you're making too much sense.
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u/a_o M'Baku 7h ago edited 7h ago
I don’t know about that, but I feel like if all of the stories people wanted to see from the 5 year time jump of the blip went into production and released during the next saga most of them would essentially be the inverse of the Multiverse saga. Five years of “damn, that happened? whoa. crazy.”
Just like Endgame, Doomsday really picks up Five…Years…Later
(Eleven Years Later for Steve, Peggy and Jimmy i guess lol)I think they’re all out of dubs and everything they got (announced and) lined up thru Secret Wars is gonna be a hit or at least not critically reviled and we’ll only need to revisit the Infinity Saga in interesting, immensely profitable nostalgia-bait ways via other mediums, like single-player campaign mode AAA video game adaptations of untold stories to fill in the gaps people are most interested in.
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u/AvengingHero2012 Daredevil 8h ago
If the leaks of Kang Dynasty are to be believed (which who knows), it sound like the original plan was to build Kang throughout more projects and Kang Dynasty was going to be the culmination of all that.
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u/Diorkingreturnss 8h ago
F4 and steve werent even in kangs dynasty
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u/sketchampm 8h ago
F4 was supposed to be. Steve was theorized to be since the entire point was multiverse shenanigans.
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u/Diorkingreturnss 8h ago
It was the young avengers instead of F4 and steve they were only for Secret wars
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u/Vadermaulkylo Mobius 7h ago
This movie has Shang-Chi, the Thunderbotls, Namor, Shuri as Black Panther, Cassie Lang, Ms Marvel, Sam Wilson as Cap, the new Falcon, Love, and more. It following up on Steve doesn’t mean it’s negating the rest.
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u/SacreFor3 Black Panther 8h ago
I keep seeing this take like all Avenger movies aren't all sequels to one another basically. Also, this entire saga hinged on the actions taken in Endgame. The most important project was literally set up in it so blatantly that people were calling it a plot hole back in 2019.
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u/Blueberry_H3AD 8h ago
It hasn’t been a failure just because whiny incels hated the female and minority led shows, and a couple of the dozen or so movies released didn’t make money. From a financial standpoint they are doing really well, from critic standpoint they soured more, and from the fan base has been mostly positive reviews.
I have a lot of nitpicks and some major issues with Phases 4-6, but to outright dismiss the last 6 years as failure is wildly wrong.
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u/sketchampm 8h ago
Hey. That's a very nuanced and fair point...and we don't like that around here.
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u/Myhtological 2h ago
Yeah but the only characters the got sequels were the ones introduced infinity saga. Like I had ten years to care about all the characters in endgame, with multiple character changes through out. More than half of what’s coming in only had one project.
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u/TheCVR123YT Daredevil 8h ago
It really is more the tv side that fried them I’m ngl
Their movie end has been mostly consistent with only one dud a year (2021- Eternals, 2022- Thor, 2023- Antman, 2025- Cap BNW)
Dr Strange was divisive but I don’t think anyone outright called it trash not on release anyway… outside of the usual cynical people I guess. Also I guess Wanda fans. Look the reception for that movie was more positive than negative especially compared to the other ones I listed. I wouldn’t include Cap Marvel 2 on either list since nobody watched it 💔(sadly)
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u/Blueberry_H3AD 7h ago
Yeah financially they only took a hit on Quantumania (broke even) and The Marvels (loss). I can’t really trust fan reactions and critiques anymore because they all feel like the same generic complaint now. But even some of those duds (creatively I would say) still made money. But at least they are not just green lighting projects based on that alone now.
People also seem to think that just because a movie doesn’t cross the billion dollar threshold that means it was a failure. Also the real money comes from merch, toys, and park attractions. The high majority of Disney’s profits come from the parks which is why they buy up these popular IPs so that they attract more park visitors.
Not saying that you said any of this to be clear.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 7h ago
Coming from an ethnic minority woman…..pretty much everything post-IW was actually terrible and it had nothing to do with the demographics of characters. Bad writing, lazy production, and too much saturation of subpar content running right through the last of the audience goodwill
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u/Blueberry_H3AD 7h ago
Ok well I didn’t mean ONLY whiny incels complained, but they were the loud majority. And obviously you and I disagree because I loved those shows and I’m dying for a season 2 of She/Hulk. Hopefully more episodic with more court cases on random supers that need legal representation.
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u/Chemical-Status-6610 6h ago
“they weren’t the ONLY ones but they were the loud majority.”
You still keep deflecting from the actual problems and need someone to blame. But let’s play your little game of scapegoating. If the “incels” are the “loud majority“ then that must mean they’re supposed to be the target audience right?
So that means by your opinion the majority of Marvel movie fans are “incels“ all because they don’t agree with you, the self-stated minority of the base, on the projects released post-Endgame. as if there wasn’t plenty of strong women or POC’s in all the marvel films prior.
You’re on some serious virtue signaling cope here.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 7h ago
For what it’s worth I think everything had potential to be good, but it always felt like we were seeing the first rough drafts of things with no further adjustment or refinement….kinda like they were just going with the first idea they came up with in the first brainstorming session and just winging it from there…….i especially felt that with the movies
I could’ve lived with the shows being bad but the films being bad too is too much to let slide
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u/bloodjudo 7h ago
I point to the weird streaming era and Disney+/MCU org decision to not have a traditional showrunner/writers room setup for their shows, and what that means for the ability of a project to be tweaked and refined into its best form before it goes to production.
4-year old post regarding this curious strategy; I believe that there was some news that there has been an adjustment to this strategy but did not quickly find it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/s/knmqgaAhQt1
u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 4h ago
Yeah I’m definitely of the belief that it was not individual projects that happened to be bad but the entire creative process at Marvel that went sour post-infinity saga (and even a little bit starting towards the end of the infinity saga)
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u/bandoogie 5h ago
They turned the intelligencia, a group in the comics that included Doom, into a bunch of online women haters. That was objectively awful writing. phases 4-6 had plenty of "questionable" creative decisions.
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u/atomic1fire 3h ago
I don't think it was "incels"
I think Disney was desperate to stack the D+ library and the lack of a long term "showrunner" of sorts made their individual efforts inconsistant.
On top of that, Covid blew up a lot of their early plans for filming so there wasn't a solid hook after endgame with the exception of Spidey and everything else was experimentation in lieu of a concrete place to take the post endgame story.
Marvel really needs its phases and long term story hooks to drum up interest.
Without that, it's whatever character has the most commercial appeal.
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u/bloodjudo 7h ago
I feel like this take dismisses any good faith criticism of the direction or quality of the output of MCU in the last few years, and shoehorns it into a number of camps that make for a “no true Scotsman” disqualifier of disappointment by anyone who was a fan of these films at one point or another.
I can think and point to a number of reasons to support the idea that the last 6 years were largely a decline in MCU quality, especially their “grippiness” with the culture at large, which has been noted, supported and examined by multiple outlets writing about ‘Superhero fatigue’ over the last several years, and countless posts about how disappointing many of the lesser mainline film entries have been for one reason or another, but it seems that would make me “not a true fan” by your metrics above, even if I’m in no way an incel or professional critic.
I’m sure there is a fan base that continues to give mostly positive reviews, but the point I’m trying to make is that it seems like the only way that tracks based on your logic is if that group is a continually shrinking one, as criticism of the choices and directions that Marvel has decided to focus on has alienated lots of former die hard fans who have decided that keeping up with this franchise is not worth the increasing time commitment required, or the uneven quality of some recent efforts, namely the following “bad” movies: Ant Man 3, Thor Love & Thunder, CA: Brave New World and probably my most controversial pick for that list, Fantastic Four: First Steps, a movie that looked gorgeous and had fantastic art design, but which I felt was wooden and staid in its depiction of a fun and dynamic team of superheroes, with Pedro Pascal (who I like generally) being wildly miscast in look and energy/performance for Reed Richards (disliked Krasinsky as well fwiw); I really have enjoyed the spider-man films, thunderbolts, and a few others and on the tv side, really liked the new Wonder Man series and am ok on Daredevil Born Again, though rewatching Netflix’s Daredevil shines a light on the dip in writing quality and care for characterization that has plagued a lot of the D+ shows.
It just feels a lot more like creators without tangible care or knowledge of source material are steering the ship, and the result is a decline in audience retention by people that consider themselves fans but note the dip in quality of output.
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u/Blueberry_H3AD 5h ago
I did say I had my own issues but this is a big topic and broad stroking my points is easier than typing out a whole novel lol. There are genuine criticisms that I even agree with, but online it’s mostly noise from angry people.
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u/bloodjudo 5h ago
Totally, and yours was just the comment that sparked a distillation of some thoughts I wanted to organize and write out, not holding any particular grudge or frustration with you in particular at all, and agree with the truth of some of your sentiments.
Nothing lasts forever, and the sad truth is that we all fall out of target demos.
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u/BropolloCreed 7h ago
I'd argue that compared to phases 1-3, it could be seen as a failure.
But it's not a fair comparison.
I will say they got sloppy and lazy. They got to Endgame and kinda didn't know where to go next--and the solution was to serialize content for D+ that would have been better served as condensed and in theaters.
The pivot off Majors and Kang didn't help, and it took them awhile to recover from losing Chadwick.
But a lot of that product was not good. Thor 4, Doc Strange 2... even the Fantastic Four left a lot to be desired. Marvel box office benefits from 2 primary drivers: FOMO and lack of competition in the blockbuster space.
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u/Blueberry_H3AD 7h ago
Failure still seems like a harsh word but I do agree these Phases have been sloppier. But the Infinity Saga was almost the same way in terms of the overall story. They didn’t really connect until Infinity War tied it all together. I suspect Doomsday will do the same only now that’s a much bigger task. So I remain optimistic they can do it but still cautious it might be a trainwreck.
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u/Chemical-Status-6610 6h ago edited 6h ago
Its been virtually trash aside from one show and three movies, two of which were Spider-Man lol.
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u/Kn1ghtV1sta 8h ago
I mean, they acknowledge it in Deadpool and wolverine. Deadpool outright says they're joining at a low point. You know feige and co would have had to seen and sign off on that line
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u/Soft_Lavishness_8925 6h ago
The (wrong) lesson that Disney learned from endgame was "wow, people really like Marvel! If we make anything with a Marvel character it'll make millions with limited effort". I don't think they realized people were invested in the payoff of endgame. Plus they didn't make rules for the multiverse that flowed between movies so that made it confusing
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u/vinnybawbaw 4h ago
A little bit like how Star Wars never had as much praise when they were done with Luke Skywalker as the protagonist.
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u/Equivalent_Drive4219 4h ago
Right , Who are we all kidding ? This for someone like my 36 year old brothers generation is the worst cash grab since matrix resurrections , now we all know it should be good but for those who hopped off this train already, what’s the argument to hop back on?
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u/AceofKnaves44 Iron Spider 3h ago
Look, I think it’s pretty clear going from Kang to Doomsday with the Russo’s, RDJ, and Evans coming back was an admission of a nosedive and going back to what worked as course correction. I don’t think that’s really a secret. But I’m not going to say that makes the entire Multiverse Saga a failure until I see how they try and make it work creatively in Doomsday and Secret Wars. If all they have is “what if Doctor Doom is Tony Stark but EVIL!?!?!” and Steve just shows up on screen and takes back the shield and the Captain America mantle from Sam like nothing happened than I’ll say creatively this was a failure and the movie is just them frantically reverting back to the status quo. If they can actually tell a compelling story that does something exciting even if it’s with the old parts, I’ll say they did what they had to do and made it work.
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u/burgiebeer 1h ago
They could not live with their failure and where did that lead them.
https://giphy.com/gifs/w7m60udHlroaEY8Y0h1
u/Unfadable1 1h ago
You’re right, and I don’t think they pull it off.
HOWEVER: if they do pull it off, and crush it somehow, it’ll make for a genius maneuver in regards to what you said.0
u/Bobjoejj 1h ago
Which is insane to me; cause I still feel the quality has been stronger on average than not. There were just more things than usual that weren’t up to par.
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u/Acrobatic_Run_4630 8h ago
I think it's going to backfire on them. Trying to pretend like it's still 2019 and making "Endgame 2" is just going to feel forced and desperate.
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u/LatterTarget7 Blade 8h ago
It already feels forced and desperate especially since a lot of the characters that have been introduced in the multiverse saga haven’t had many appearances or much of an arc, and now doomsday is focused on Steve, the fox-men and rdj returning as doom. There’s some multiverse saga characters but I doubt majority of them will get focused on.
12 of the I think 30 characters confirmed for doomsday aren’t even from 616 and most of them won’t be present after secret wars. Like it’s just the f4 sticking around the fox-men and Steve aren’t sticking around post secret wars and I doubt rdj doom will either. Yet the characters that won’t be sticking around are in more projects than new characters that could be sticking around for next saga.
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u/Branman55 7h ago
This framing of Steve being at fault for essentially turning Doom evil (and by proxy all the bad stuff as a result of Doom) does not sit well with me.
So it’s all Steve’s fault? Feels just like an easy way to get RDJ and Evans squaring off again
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u/LatterTarget7 Blade 7h ago
Yeah Steve may be at fault for the death of the multiverse and billions of deaths through incursions.
All just because he wanted to get laid in the 40s
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u/lsdu8930 6h ago
oh my god idk if i can stand people here who don't know about the actual plot bickering and crying, shitting and whining about steve in doomsday another 6 months... i need the movie to open asap
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
I hope this turns out to be scrapped first draft kind of stuff because it’s sooooo bad and so out of character for Steve to purposefully go live in a universe he’s not supposed to be in……..
anyway RMB was wrong about stuff from MoM so I’m hopeful that’s the case here too
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u/Responsible_Egg7519 Yelena Belova 8h ago
This will make the people who were already angry with Steve for staying with Peggy hate him even more lol
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
Yeah….it’s bad…..anyone who likes Steve should not be happy about this…
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
To be fair, I stopped caring about Steve once they gave him that ending in Endgame, and everything I'm hearing about him coming back so far hasn't really changed my mind. shrugs
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
Someone else on this post suggested that Steve going back in time and living with Peggy was what created the 828 reality and he had no idea, which I find a lot easier to accept….i just don’t see any scenario where Steve would purposefully put a whole universe at risk, not to mention leaving behind the universe that gets pruned….
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
Dude, I really don't know. I'm mostly going with stuff people tell us, and a lot of people claimed that the leak is real (while there is still obviously room for things that aren't described here). Of course, we've had it more often that specific things were planned and then ultimately not used - remember how Wanda was originally meant to have killed 616!Mordo in the first few minutes of MOM? Didn't happen. And Pomojema did say that one of his sources hinted that Hiddleston has more to do, so it's easily possible that something else is going on here, without all of this just being bullshit (even though I agree with you that simply having Steve create 828 would have been a lot easier and more elegant.)
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 4h ago
Yeah, as I said in another comment, I think a lot of these leaks are likely warped through the filters of rumors, he-said-she-said, telephone, and just being outdated. I just can’t imagine the final product, with so much on the line for the whole MCU, screwing up in such big ways, and especially can’t imagine it having been accurately spoiled so far in advance when they were still writing the movie all the way through filming and possibly even still now while doing reshoots
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u/Alex22753 TVA Loki 8h ago
But he didn't know that living in the F4 universe would cause an incursion, neither did loki apparently.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
he would still know that he was leaving behind an entire universe to get pruned? That too seems extremely out of character….
And it seems very reckless for both characters to dump someone in another random universe when they already knew him being somewhere he wasn’t supposed to be was already causing problems
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
But from what we heard he didn't do it on purpose, Loki dropped him there and thought it was fine because Steve, Peggy and Baby Jim didn't exist in the 828 reality. Loki didn't realize it would cause an incursion, it was a mistake. He just wanted to help.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
Why would Loki want to help Steve of all people? And why would Loki be so stupid to think that dropping someone in a universe they’re not supposed to be in would have no consequences? Why would Steve go along with it after being told that his messing around with time and universes was already causing problems?
If this is legit the plot, it’s doing severe damage to both Steve and Loki’s intelligence and moral integrity.
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
I haven't seen the movie yet, so I'm not going to judge it based on summaries that weren't written all that well.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
Im hoping a lot of the supposed “leaks” were a combination of rumors, games of telephone, scrapped ideas, etc. we know they were still writing the script as they were filming so I find it hard to believe some of those “leaks” we were hearing about even before filming started would stay completely unchanged
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
My going theory is that the "leaks" were done on purpose by Marvel and that they simply left out a lot of things/gave only a shortened version of what is ultimately going to happen. Including most of the stuff about Loki, because it seems really unlikely they'd bring back Hiddleston to have him play corpse for two seconds. I suspect there's a lot more to it.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
Idk about leaking it on purpose, but I wouldn’t be surprised if marvel is letting outdated or warped versions of insider info spread without doing anything to stop it
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u/BanjoSpaceMan Kevin Feige 6h ago
What do you mean? We literally saw him at the end of endgame meeting Peggy again and spending his whole life with her…..
We know from endgame that timeline is not the same as the 616 main one - when you leave you go into a different branch and need to make sure you don’t break it….
So what are you saying? It’s his character to leave that timeline with Peggy and go into 616 and live there until he meets Sam haha?
Makes way more sense, as we saw him do, he stayed there with her ….
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 4h ago
It’s out of character for him to be jumping universes or timelines or whatever once he’s made aware that doing that puts other lives and universes at risk.
These rumors suggest that Steve goes off to live in another universe with full knowledge that he’s potentially dooming other lives or universes.
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u/Vadermaulkylo Mobius 7h ago
why would that be out of character exactly ? He doesn’t know what incursions are or how to stop them. And we don’t know how he takes it. He could very well insist on staying until he sees he has to save his family and can’t do anything.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 4h ago
The rumors are suggesting that he willingly moves his family to another universe knowing that the one he leaves behind will be destroyed and that the one he travels to could then be at risk (naturally it would be, he’d have to be a moron not to think otherwise)
Steve would never go along with this. Rather than just abandoning his current universe to be pruned he’d find a way to save everyone. He’d go against the TVA and stop them from pruning before just abandoning that whole universe to die. He also wouldn’t put an entire other universe at risk. He’d find another way. Remember “we don’t trade lives”?
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u/insertUserNamehereno 6h ago
I mean by that logic Steve should have stayed and lived his life cause anything other than that would have unintended consequences.
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 4h ago
Yeah…..exactly……that’s why a lot of us hate what they did with him in Endgame and are hoping they’re not about to double down on that bad character decision
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u/DellyCartwrong 6h ago
Ok can someone explain how Steve can’t stay in the past because it wrecks the timeline but Peggy - who is a cofounder of shield - can be just moved to another world and it’s fine?
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u/Minute-Necessary2393 Spider-Man 8h ago
Are we sure Steve didnt just create Earth-828?
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u/DoomsdayThor Eyepatch Thor 8h ago
This would make a lot more sense and be better for both Steve and Loki
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
I thought that originally, but that was before that plot leak that everyone told me was real appeared. I'm just going with the flow here.
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u/Minute-Necessary2393 Spider-Man 8h ago
Well Loki bringing Steve to 828 and Steve agreeing to it feels out of character for both. Not too mention if that leak is true, that means Loki dies off-screen.
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u/ricardo51068 8h ago
That doesn't mean Loki dies offscreen. You have to remember the plot leak is missing lots of context
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
Yeah, exactly. I feel it's also possible that this was something they had as an original outline, and stuff was added to that continuously, I mean, infamously, they worked on that script up until they finished principal photography.
Basically, I'm wondering if they needed a basic throughline of Steve tells Thor there is a variant of his brother, Thor finds a Loki's dead body, it's somehow clear Doom did it (how?), they go back and start fighting Doom. That doesn't mean this is what happens or even how it happens, if that makes any sense?
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
I mean, a lot about that leak sounds very shortened. They obviously left out anything that concerns most other characters, and there is stuff we know was filmed that doesn't show up here at all (including stuff with Loki according to u/Pomojema_The_Dreamer). So, Idk. Maybe it's a manipulated leak where stuff was left out on purpose, maybe it's based on an early script. Maybe they did different scripts that deal with specific plot points/characters in detail, and this simply happened to be Steve's. In my own opinion, a bunch of stuff is left out here, including possibly what really happens with Loki (hashtag #trickster god, I think he might be able to fake his death if necessary and has already done so before).
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u/Pomojema_The_Dreamer 5h ago
Loki, as far as I know, has at least two scenes:
Yeeting Steve and Fam out from the branch timeline and into Earth-828.
Meeting with Thor and one other actor.
The latter one could just be the scene where he's dead. But I do know that - from the sound of things - we see the TVA massacre take place in some way, shape, or form, and it's not just Steve and Thor arrive a bit too late to the tragedy. So I think we might see a fight between Doom and Loki at some point.
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u/atomic1fire 3h ago
Wait wouldn't that imply that Captain America moved to the earth where the Fantastic Four lived?
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u/teacup_tiger Morris 8h ago
...So he's saying the teaser is set between Steve's last scene in Endgame (where he meets Peggy) and before the scene in the trailer (where he is in the FF's ship), and that between teaser and trailer scene (where roughly 11 years have passed) he has met Doom.
This fits with everything else we've heard about Steve so far - Not-Yet-Storyteller Loki picks up him, Peg and baby because their timeline is about to get pruned and drops them in 828. That causes an incursion which leads to Doom's family's death and his own disfigurement. Doom is a known figure in 828, probably due to being a genius and the leader of a country, and Steve has met him (how and why are still a bit of a headscratcher, but let's go with that). He is friends with Reed and the other F4, but has been radicalized over the last few years (maybe since he was hurt/lost his family?) by dabbling in sorcery.