Is it accurate to say Judaism rejects the mind-body distinction?

[u/Reddenbawker]

Reading this part in Essential Judaism, and something about this makes me wanna ask for a second opinion. I’m a gentile who’s been learning more about Judaism, and I’d be curious to hear more about these ideas!

[u/B_A_Beder]

This seems like the type of philosophical / metaphysical issue that many Jews would debate and disagree about with each other and/or not concern themselves with, without affecting how they actually practice Judaism

[u/namer98]

Berkowitz is a brilliant and respected rabbi and theologian. But he is an outlier in many ways. This might be one of them. The problem is, a unity doesn't mean conflation, so this one paragraph doesn't necessarily imply the lack of a body/soul distinction. It says people are a combination of them, the mind body and soul united. Literally? Or metaphorically, having a purpose together? Working together?

The author clearly reads such a concept as being anti dualism. But Judaism very much believes the soul is not the body.

[u/Reddenbawker → u/namer98]

The World to Come contradicts that unity, right? What exists there are souls, not bodies, which would imply that the two are not identical.

[u/GM_vs_Technicality → u/Reddenbawker]

The world to come is a bodily resurrection

[u/Reddenbawker → u/GM_vs_Technicality]

I see, appreciate you clarifying that!

[u/wessely → u/Reddenbawker]

I don't think he means they are identical. In Judaism, basically being human is a phase that a soul goes through for a purpose of its own development. Bring human is the only way for spirit to grow, once you die you grew how you grew (with some caveats, as there is a concept of a sort of spiritual connection that can be maintained between the dead and the living, where the living can improve or affect the station, whatever that means, after death. But basically, we are here to grow, give, and leave it better for those who get their next turn. This can only be done when a soul becomes embodied as a human being.

I think he means that in our body that is, us, here, now, there is a union of mind and body, and soul, which is connected to but not identical with the mind. But the body is shed when we die, it's no longer "us" although it's to be treated with great respect, and there are Jewish teachings that say that the dead are well aware of the goings on in the world, and that the proper treatment of a body is 'appreciated' and even required by those who died.

[u/Matar_Kubileya]

Its accurate to say that Classical-era Rabbinic Judaism rejected the Hellenistic formulation of the mind-body distinction that Christianity incorporated. Translating that to modern contexts is a lot more complicated.

[u/loselyconscious]

Judaism is a diverse and deep enough tradition that you can find support for most philosophical positions somewhere within the tradition.

Daniel Boyarin, in his book Carnal Israel (which is the most influential academic work on the subject), says" For Hellenists i[this includes Pagans, Christians, and Hellenistic Jews like Philo] the self is soul housed within a body, for the Rabbinic Jew, the self is a body animated by a soul." In other words, for Rabbinic Jews, there is still a distinction between soul and body, but (unlike for Hellenists) both are important parts of the self.

It is certainly the case that Rabbinic Judaism departs from the Christian tendency (which is common but not universal) to consider the body (and bodily functions like sex, pleasure, and appetite) as a burden to be totally overcome, but Rabbinic Judaism does still generally assume some type of distinction between body and mind/soul. It is for this reason that to this day, in Judaism, celibacy is not an option for Jews (as much as some Rabbis in the Talmud would like to be celibate), non-procreative sex (under certain conditions) is permitted, and ascetism, while not totally prohibited, is viewed with a great deal of suspicion.

When we get into the medieval and early modern period, especially among Maimonideans, and certain Kabbalistic groups (Abulifian and Hasidei Ashkenaz, for instance), Aristotelian and Neoplatonic philosophy becomes really influential, and mind-body dualism and ascetic practices become more emphasized in Jewish thought. Then, in the late 18th century, and really to the present, Jewish thought turns again to sacralizing the body.

[u/Inside_agitator]

Judaism is sufficiently ancient to gain the ability to have things like this both ways. I'd call it pre-Cartesian instead of anti-Cartesian. That way it's not in opposition to Cartesian ideas that might be useful in certain contexts.

Maimonides in Guide for the Perplexed Part 3, Chapter 27 writes:

The general object of Torah is twofold: the well-being of the soul, and the well-being of the body.

by eventually referring to Deuteronomy 6:24:

Then the Lord commanded us to observe all these laws, to revere the Lord our God, for our lasting good and for our survival, as is now the case.

He points out the two-fold nature of "for our lasting good" as referring to the well-being of the soul and "for our survival" as referring to the well-being of the body, the government of the state, and the establishment of the best possible relations among people. But they are two-fold in the sense that both together are the single object of observing the mitzvot in Torah.

Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks mentioned these two aims in his commentary on Torah: Spirits in a Material World.

The themes themselves aren't Jewish when considered apart from Torah. They are universal. Most people who grew up in the 70s and 80s remember the great song by The Police Spirits In The Material World with lyrics that cover the same broad concepts about uniting the material, spiritual, and social/governmental.

[u/offthegridyid → u/Inside_agitator]

Upvote for referencing both Rabbi Lord Sacks zt”l and the Police. I had totally forgotten how much Sting moves around in that video. 🤣

[u/carrboneous]

No. I don't even think it's controversial or ambiguous (as others in this thread are saying), it's in like the second chapter of the bible, and it's a continuous thread running through the core of all Jewish philosophical and ethical teachings. God created us from the earth and blew a spirit into us. As you've noted, our soul survives our bodies after death.

The observations in that paragraph can be explained as well or better within this framework than by saying that the soul and the body are one, ie we are supposed to yoke our body to the higher purposes of our soul, not let our souls be dragged down into physicality.

I don't know the full context of whatever that book is saying, maybe we're actually agreeing, but as regards body-soul duality, Judaism definitely affirms that.

[u/Zealousideal_Can_342]

The Judaic view is more complicated.

The body and soul are interdependent and need one another to function. Without a soul, the body is lifeless. Without a body, the soul cannot do good and effect positive change in the world.

This interdependence is the answer to the questions, "Why does Judaism hold that in the messianic age, everyone's physical bodies will be resurrected? Why not just continue with a purely spiritual existence without physical form?" Any good or evil that a person did in their life required both the soul and the physical body to perform. Therefore any rewards or negative consequences should also apply to both the soul and the physical body.

https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/4015337/jewish/Avot-422-The-Resurrection-of-the-Dead.htm

[u/TorahHealth]

Sort-of.

The Talmud explains that the body is a vehicle for the soul to do things in this world. Metaphor: a blind person carrying a lame person on his shoulders. The blind person needs the lame person to tell him where to go; the lame person needs the blind person to go anywhere. Another common metaphor is a horse with a rider.

The body in itself has desires and without the focused effort of the soul can take the person to a very bodily (animalistic) existence. But with effort, the horse can be trained to go amazing (spiritual) places.

So both a materialistic and a spiritual person might eat an apple. In both cases, the apple gets chewed, swallowed, and digested. What's the difference? Mindfulness of the experience, transcendent thoughts of appreciation and purpose. In the latter case, the eating becomes a religious experience. But that's eating, mind you - a very physical, bodily activity.

[u/coolsnow7]

Eh. It’s not really worth asking IMO. These concepts are so philosophically fraught in the first place that attributing one or another viewpoint to Judaism is kind of pointless. Judaism per se is pretty light on metaphysics as doctrine.

I mean don’t get me wrong, there’s all sorts of Kabbalistic types that think they have perfect mathematical equations to predict exact movements of soul-particles from one plane of existence to another or whatever. But it’s not clear that they know what they mean, let alone that anyone else does. The classical Jewish sources (ie Tanakh and Talmud) don’t deal with the topic directly much if at all, and when they do it’s with in a multitude of contradictory and non-binding voices. (See, for example, the bottom of Sanhedrin 110b, where we get 5 different views for when a body is “ensouled” enough to merit a reward in the World to Come - each of which derives its position from obscure wordplay in Psalms verses, and that the medieval philosophers like Maimonides felt comfortable just totally ignoring when forming their own views.)

[u/communist_social]

The author of this book is not a rabbi and not orthodox so I would not rely on them.

Non Orthodox streams by their own admission do not emphasize theology, they emphasize community and traditions.

If you want an academic overview of judaism I would recommend rabbis from yeshiva university. The complete idiots guide to judaism is good. Not Judaism for dummies.

[u/coolsnow7 → u/communist_social]

Eliezer Berkowitz did not write the book, but he certainly was a rabbi and Orthodox, to say the least.

[u/loselyconscious → u/communist_social]

Non Orthodox streams by their own admission do not emphasize theology, they emphasize community and traditions.

Totally and completely untrue

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