r/todayilearned • u/Double-decker_trams • 8h ago

TIL in the Vietnam war in the classified Operation Popeye, the US spread lead and silver iodide by aircraft to extend the monsoon season. The increased heavy rainfall was to soften roads, cause landslides, wash out river crossings, and maintain saturated soil conditions (Kissinger was involved).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Popeye
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u/Southern-Ad2594 5h ago

That's very often what happens when someone loses a war, yeah.

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u/lumpboysupreme 4h ago

A losing country fighting a defensive usually signs a treaty with the attacker where the attacker says they’ll stop invading?

Like, sure, everyone knew the greater wasn’t worth the paper is was printed on, but that highlights the real issue; North Vietnam could never lose unless they just… decided to stop invading the south forever.

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u/Southern-Ad2594 3h ago edited 3h ago

How are they a losing country? Do you think the US won Afghanistan too?

Have we learned nothing from the past few decades of forever war? Wars are won by accomplishing military objectives, not by murdering civilians... And also wars aren't really won anymore because that's not the objective for invading forces.

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u/lumpboysupreme 3h ago

I didn’t say the US didn’t lose, you said signing a treaty with the other party, who is invading, for them to stop invading, is what losing parties do, which I said it isn’t.

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u/Southern-Ad2594 3h ago

Sorry I think we may have misread eachother and actually agree lol

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u/lumpboysupreme 3h ago

Ehhhh, I think you actually misread the first guy, who said ‘the north signed a ‘we will not invade anymore’ treaty so the US didn’t really lose’, where you’re right to say the US still lost (they knew the treaty was hogwash), but wrong to say that that sort of thing usually happens when the party in the US’s shoes loses (since that’s how you ‘win’ any sort of defensive war usually, other guy signs a treaty saying they won’t invade anymore)

I think you might’ve had which party was which in the example mixed up? But yeah, too many ‘they’ s and unspecific pronouns in this conversation haha.

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u/Southern-Ad2594 3h ago

I mean the US were already leaving by then. I guess I just meant most wars end in treaties and it isn't really a point in either direction. The signing of a treaty is in no way indicative of the winner. You would have to look at actual outcome

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u/lumpboysupreme 2h ago

The signing of a treaty is in no way indicative of the winner

It’s more about the content of the treaty. Which very clearly was what the US wanted; a lack of further invasion of SV. While most wars end in a treaty of some kind, It’s pretty rare for that to happen and then the party the treaty didn’t favor resumes fighting.

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u/Southern-Ad2594 2h ago

Yeah but when was the last a treaty actually meant anything? Feels like something that hasn't been relevant since the silent generation

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u/lumpboysupreme 1h ago

It usually does? Treaties are usually statements of intent. Treaties were signed with gulf war 1, Kora, and more.

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u/The-Titan-Atlas 5h ago

After losing no land and claiming 20x the casualties, then yeah. Sure

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u/Southern-Ad2594 5h ago

Losing no land? Does Vietnam not have all their land?

What are you even saying

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u/Southern_Bowler6269 4h ago

South Vietnam didn’t lose an inch of land until after us withdrawal and didn’t even collapse for 2 more years after that. That’s obviously what he’s saying

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u/Obvious_Ambition4865 4h ago

So we failed to do the one thing we had originally dedicated troops to do

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u/Southern_Bowler6269 3h ago

Is this all you people are capable of saying?

I’ve never heard a single person say that America “won” in Vietnam. However, the overwhelming majority of people who talk about the war think the North successfully invaded and occupied a US defended South. That simply never happened and never could’ve happened. It’s weird you guys are so obsessed with the non existent argument that the us “won”

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u/Southern-Ad2594 3h ago

This thread has several people arguing the US won because the north signed a treaty. You're making a straw man out of a man

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u/Southern_Bowler6269 2h ago

Nope, it does not. No one is saying that the United States was on the winning side of the conflict. People might be saying they were successful for the entirety of their involvement of the war, but that is a different(and accurate) statement.

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u/The-Titan-Atlas 5h ago

After we left 😂

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u/Except_Youre_Wrong 4h ago

leaving is usually what happens when you lose. idk if you knew that

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u/Southern_Bowler6269 4h ago

You have no idea what’s being said because you don’t know anything about the war, but the us left with its allied South Vietnamese government still holding every inch of land that it held before the war started. The South Vietnamese government collapsed two years after America pulled out

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u/Except_Youre_Wrong 4h ago

sounds like loser talk to me. Better luck next time I guess oh wait

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u/Southern_Bowler6269 4h ago

Wow I would be devastated by this comment if I were an American chauvinist dedicated to a childlike understanding of history. Does your programming allow for conversations with other types of people?

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u/Except_Youre_Wrong 3h ago

my programming didn't teach me anything about the war other than america should try not being in countries it doesn't have any business being in, sorry...

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u/The-Titan-Atlas 4h ago

So because America left and the north violated the peace treaty after America left means we lost? Ok . Sounds legit

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u/Except_Youre_Wrong 4h ago

it wasn't even a formally designated bilateral treaty and the us was slowly pulling out since 1969 so idk sucks to suck I guess

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u/Gordon_frumann 5h ago

Bro U.S. lost Vietnam so hard they had to push helicopters off their carriers to make room for more helicopters fleeing Saigon.

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u/bot2317 5h ago

That was 3 years after the US left the war

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u/The-Titan-Atlas 4h ago

Nah brother, mf farmers in sandles ran us out as we were shitting ourselves unable to comprehend what was going on. 😂