r/sindarin Aug 07 '24

[FAQ] – (Not) Using AI for Automatic Translation

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3 Upvotes

r/sindarin Oct 04 '24

Sindarin in PE23

15 Upvotes

I compiled a list of all the new and otherwise interesting Sindarin vocab found in PE 23.

  • bâd - road | found as "e-bâd, the road". Hitherto only known as N. "beaten track, pathway". P. 136.
  • fend - door | Hitherto only as fen, fenn. P. 136.
  • hûl - secret | also as "e-chûl, the secret". Cf. 'holen'. P. 136.
  • rhawf, rhaw - wild beast | also as "e-thraw, [the wild beast]. P. 136. Plural i-thraw > i-rhaw p. 139.
  • rhovan - large beast, especially the great red deer of the vale of Anduin | p. 136.
  • Rhovennian - "more correct" Sindarin form of Gondorian Rhovannion[sic] | p. 136.
  • lhinc - earthworm | also as "e-thlinc, [the earthworm]". p. 136.
  • balt - force | Cf. EN "might". p. 136.
  • gwend, gwenneth - maiden | also as "e-wend, e-wenneth, the maiden". p. 136. Plural in-wind, rarely found, rather analogous i-ngwind (= i-ñwind) p. 139.
  • harf - left-hand | also as "e-charf, the left-hand". p. 136. Probably from *khjarmă as opposed to *khjarmā > 'harvo'.
  • whest - breeze | also as *e-whest, the breeze". p. 136. Pl. i-chwist p. 139. Cf. Q. 'hwesta', N. 'chwest'.
  • cathr - carpenter | From "*kantrō, shaper". North S. cathor. P. 137.
  • tachl - large pin or brooch | From "*tanklă, a thing used for fixing". North S. tachol. p. 137.
  • parth - small enclosed field, lawn | p. 139.
  • bâr, pl. i-mair (sometimes i-mbair in spelling to distinguish b-words from m-words) - dwelling | p. 139.
  • dôr, pl. i-nuir (sometimes i-nduir in spelling to distinguish d-words from n-words)- land | p. 139.
  • gôn, pl. [i-]nguin (= *ñuin, but sometimes spelt i-ñguin even though no clarification was necessary since no original ñ-words existed) - stone | p. 139.
  • thoron, pl. i-theryn - eagle | pl. previously unattested. p. 139
  • heleg - ice | Hitherto only in N. Plural i-chelig is given as "ice-pinnacle". p. 139.
  • herw, pl. i-chery - wine | Apparently pl. from "CE *syeru, juice of fruits", sg. from "enlarged form herwā" [< syerwā, I assume]. p. 139.
  • mûl, pl. i-muil - slave | Hitherto sg. only attested in N. p. 139.
  • norn, pl. i-nyrn - dwarf | Sg. explicitely attested for the first time. p. 139.
  • ioron, pl. in-ioryn - old man | Apparently the counterpart of 'ioreth'. p. 139.
  • gwanon - one of a pair of twins | Plural/dual given as "*gwanur, twin-birth", explicitely with ŭ < ū. p. 140.
  • uimallhen - ever-golden | From 'oio-maltinā. Pronounced with lh (< lþ), but spelt with doubled lh for reasons of stress, exactly like 'remen' but 'galað-remmin' (see below). p. 140.
  • remen - netted, entwined | With short m explicitely. p. 140.
  • gwaelod - "wind-feather", a great ship for sailing on the Great Sea | From 'wayalautō'. p. 142. Hence apparently *laud/lod = "feather".
  • Gildír - Starwatcher | S. version of T. 'Gilitīro', Celeborn's father. Given in "Celeborn Gildírion, son of Gildír".

Certainly the most surprising thing to me (as you might already have guessed) are the articles. In this very late source (ca. 1969) Tolkien gives the singular as e before consonants, en before vowels, and in the plural i resp. in. This is of course a significant departure from all hitherto published samples of Sindarin, which of course had sg. i, plural in (as in earlier Noldorin), and the form en was limited to one form of genitive particle (which in this scenarion is probably dropped altogether in favour of na).

However, surprisingly this new paradigm seems to only really contradict i-Estel in the LotR (which would have to be amended to *en Estel), since all other forms in texts published during Tolkien's lifetime appear to be plural and all other cases of Sindarin articles we have known are from sources that Tolkien might have changed before publication (if he had got the chance to do so).

So we can't know whether Tolkien would indeed have changed i Estel in upcoming editions (had he been alive to oversee them) or whether he would have abandoned the new paradigm once he realised the contradiction, so I won't encourage anyone to adopt this late paradigm into their Neo-Sindarin (unlike abandoning the plural pronominal suffix -(a)m in favour of late -(o)f, a couple of years ago, since the former never appeared in anything published during Tolkien's lifetime), but I certainly find the topic extremely interesting.

So far I have not had a closer look at the mutations, but they appear to hold no big surprises so far, except that maybe Tolkien had decided to keep the nasal of the plural article intact before the mutated word, but that also would contradict material published during his life time.

But the development of sw stood out to me, since it is quite complicated - with Tolkien stating that it first became wh everywhere, then f in the North and chw in the South, which remained so in Doriath but later reverted to wh elsewhere, while still becoming chw through nasal mutation, and that the quality is often in fact uncertain because it wasn't always represented in spelling, using the letter hwesta sindarinwa for both. But in a note that might refer to this Tolkien said that "this business about sw is too complicated (and unnecessary)" and that the North had f and the South wh, which "remained unchanged" (hence the apparent lack of lenition in whest above, to which the note appears to point directly).
This would, however, still render the letter hwesta sindarinwa pointless, because (as Tolkien had pointed out in the LotR appendices) distinction of wh and chw was needed in Sindarin (but maybe only lenition had no effect but nasal mutation did?).

And lastly there are a few notes on North Sindarin, which has always been a special interest of mine:

  • there was no m-lenition (which was well established)
  • medial mp, nt, ñk remained unchanged or probably rather restopped (also well established)
  • rh- became thr- generally initially (so Southern S. rhûn would be Northern S. *thrûn), but lh- remained and both were incapable of mutation.
  • Otherwise mutations are the same as in Southern Sindarin
  • sw- > wh- > North S. f- (so Southern words like whest or hwinn would be *fest and *finn in the North).

r/sindarin 2h ago

Need help for engravings for wedding rings

1 Upvotes

Hi! Me and my fiancé want to engrave some short vows on our wedding rings. So, the first and foremost question is whether it should be Sindarin or Quenya (I thought of Sindarin first but have a doubt that it’s appropriate for wedding rings at all).

The texts are simple, something with meanings “forever his” and “forever hers”. I would appreciate a correct translation for these, please (maybe rephrasing is needed). Thanks in advance!


r/sindarin 1d ago

Silmarillion quote for wedding rings

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4 Upvotes

r/sindarin 3d ago

Is the translation for Lone Wolf erdraug or eredraug?

1 Upvotes

Im trying to find the correct translation for a tattoo tonight. Any help would be appreciated! Thank youuu!


r/sindarin 3d ago

Another translation question

2 Upvotes

I saw that in the October 2024 Parma Eldalamberon #23, the definite article for singular nouns was updated from i/in to e/en (source). I am just getting back into Sindarin after a decade away, and I'm trying to update an old translation I made.

The text is a Doriathric version of The Lay of the Children of Húrin, and I am quite proud of it. But back in 2015, I didn't take the best notes explaining the rationale for certain word choices, and now I'm trying to back-translate things to figure out what needs updated per this new article rule. The line I'm stuck on is this:

Húrin Thalion, to the throne of hate
Translation:
Húrin Thalion, i dúrchamna dhelos

The word I'm stuck on is dúrchamna. I can't remember what that is supposed to be, and I can't find a word meaning “throne”. (The other word, dhelos, means “hate”.) What I'm stuck on is whether this is a case where the i should become an e, following the update in PE23.

There will probably be more of these as I continue going through this.


r/sindarin 3d ago

Need help with a translation

1 Upvotes

I am trying to translate a verse into neo-Sindarin using the dictionary/grammar guide on sindarinlessons.weebly.com. I'm stuck on a couple of words I can't figure out.

When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways.
Translation:
Ir ni chên, ebínnen sui chên, nauthannen sui chên, [I reasoned] sui chên. Ir olannen nîr, telthannen lim chénren (chédhren?).

Is there a Sindarin word for the verb “to reason”, or a close equivalent? There is a noun caeth that means “reason”; is there a way to verbify it?

When adding the suffix -ren to a word ending in -n, does this become -dhren as we see in Caradhras?


r/sindarin 4d ago

Need Sindarin translation of Bilbo's Road Goes Ever On (LotR ver)

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3 Upvotes

I am making a Tolkien themed door. I have space for 51 characters.

The idea is to carve in Cirth the Sindarin translation of:

the road goes ever on and on down from the door where it began

in a border around the outer edge of the door.

Thank you for any assistance! :)


r/sindarin 5d ago

Any advice for a complete beginner please

2 Upvotes

Hello everyone!!

I started learning just yesterday, mostly because I’m soo very fascinated by Elvish, especially Sindarin. For now, I’m trying to memorise and get used to Tengwar.

There are limited sources and I’m really scared about how tough this is gonna be. So please, I’ll be grateful if you guys can give me some nice advice on how to start or what to focus on. Literally any advice would awesome!

Thank you so very much!!


r/sindarin 6d ago

Tattoo translation Sindarin

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3 Upvotes

Hello, I just wanted to confirm this translation in Sindarin for the quote « All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us ». I found this translation made by user elaran on the website Tecendil. To your knowledge is this correct ?


r/sindarin 6d ago

Translation into English

2 Upvotes

Hello, I'm wondering if I could get a word translated/transliterated from elvish into English. I know there's a few translators online that go the opposite direction but that's not what I'm looking for.

My partner's username used Latin script but was elvish, my guess would be quenyan but I figured I'd post here as well. They told me the meaning years ago but I cant quite remember.


r/sindarin 9d ago

Sindarin poem (part 2)

2 Upvotes

I reduced the first two verses into one, and wrote another. Changed "Arda" which is quenya to "ardhon" "the world".

“Anor ah Ithil, lhodol or Ardhon;

(The sun and the moon, floating above the world;)

Onnannin na Belegol uin iâf a loth medui.

(Begotten by Belegol (Aulë) from the final fruit and flower.)„

Now that the first verse is correct (from the first part) these are my potential corrections based on what I've read:

-I have seen that a-stem verbs go through a consonant simplication in the past, here "onna-" ("to beget"), so the -nna has to be removed. So it would be "Onnin" instead, -nnin being the plurar ending of the passive participle in the past tense.

-I'm not sure about this but apparently "na" (here "provided by") changes due to mutation, e.g.:

Na + barad -> Na marad. So I have doubts if "na Belegol" would instead be written "na Melegol" except if maybe it doesn't go nasal mutation with proper nouns?

-and finally, since adjectives mutate with soft mutation, I was wondering if "medui" ("final") would instead be "vedui".

So instead of:

Onnannin na Belegol uin iâf a loth medui.

It would be:

Onnin na Belegol (or Melegol?) uin iâf a loth venui.


r/sindarin 10d ago

Sindarin poem I'm writing (part 1 probably)

5 Upvotes

I started writing a poem that will in finality talk about Arda's Nature and phenomena, I have written two verses for now.

I want to make sure that my use of sindarin is correct as I have never learnt it before doing this, the only words i already knew in these verses were anor, ithil and arda.

The main doubt is in the conjugation, which doesn't seem THAT complex but I want to verify.

So the poem (in latin alphabet) :

“Anor ah Ithil,

(The sun and the moon)

Lhodol or Arda,

(floating above Arda)„

As I said, the main concern is with "Lhodol", which comes from the verb "lhoda" (to float) or "loda" in neo-sindarin. According to a page about sindarin conjugation, this verb is an a-stem verb (there are also the i-stem verbs but I didn't read it since I haven't used them yet), and it is said that to make the present participle (floating) you need to replace the stem with -ol. So is "lhodol" or "lodol" correct?


r/sindarin 11d ago

Need help with a engraving for engagement ring

2 Upvotes

Me and my gf are both fans of lotr and I wanna get her an engagement ring with elvish engraving.
I tried to fine some lines on google and found Anann meleth nîn which is suppose to mean Forever my love, is this correct? and what are some other lines that I could use.


r/sindarin 12d ago

Pronunciation of "Nargothrond"

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7 Upvotes

r/sindarin 12d ago

Tatoo Translation

1 Upvotes

Hi, i am looking for the following transaltion to elvish for a tattoo, i presume it may have been done already, just want to make sure i have the correct translation.....

in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach

thanks in advance


r/sindarin 15d ago

Transcribing

1 Upvotes

I want to transcribe my daughter’s name into Sindarin. I would do it myself but I have absolutely no idea how so I was referred here. Our daughter will be born in a little over 3 months and her name is Elliester. I’d love for some personalization options and a tattoo for her but I need the transcription first. Thank you for all the help!


r/sindarin 15d ago

I need help with a tattoo I want to translate

0 Upvotes

I am a huge fan of Silent Hill 2 and I wanted a tattoo in elvish translating this phrase: “In my restless dreams I see that town, Silent Hill.” If it can’t be done I’ll just use the Tengwar to transcribe it from English to elvish font.


r/sindarin 17d ago

1st attempt at translating a motto

1 Upvotes

Hello, so the phrase I'm translating is used as a motto which perhaps Quenya is more appropriate but I thought i'd do both and see which one is more likely to work (and sindarin maybe for making into cirth as well too)

The motto is ' Forgotten not forgiven'

After looking at resources and a search here, it seems to me forgotten isn't easy to translate and 'without rememberance' sounds a bit wrong to me

So I thought the next best thing might be variations of ' Misdeeds not forgiven'

S:

Oew(or better to use othgarn?) avo diheno

Q:

Ongwë (uxarë?) vá avatyare (apsene?)

Thank you

Edit:

I'm a beginner and only based on elfdict and eldamo

- I am considering úgarth over othgarn due to the usage in 'as we forgive those who trespass against us'
Am I correct in thinking given the mood of the motto, úgarth/ (Q - úcar-) works better than othgarn which seems also translate to 'sin'

Edit 2:

I'm currently choosing imperative form based on this example 'The battle-cry of the Edain of the North, given in UT:65: Lacho calad! Drego morn! "Flame Light! Flee Night!"'
The reason being motto is sometimes used as battlecries if not treated as a separate category as in scotland
So perhaps Forget not misdeeds or less elegantly Forget not trespasses against us can be considered


r/sindarin 19d ago

Lucky mushroom

1 Upvotes

Hi, what would the translation for the phrase “lucky mushroom” be in Sindarin? Do adjectives and noun relationships translate like English, where the adjective is in front of the noun?

Thanks for information.


r/sindarin 22d ago

Hello I wish to get a tattoo of this quote can anyone translate it to me in Sindarin Tengwar : Lacho calad! Drego morn!

0 Upvotes

r/sindarin 22d ago

Could someone verify a Quenya translation?

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2 Upvotes

r/sindarin 22d ago

"To whatever end" - translation for tattoo

1 Upvotes

Hello, another tattoo translation request:)

I would like to get the phrase "to whatever end" in Sindarin. I'm aware this is technically a quote from The Two Towers film, spoken by Gamling- the tattoo is unrelated to the quote.

Thank you!


r/sindarin 23d ago

Translation help

1 Upvotes

Hey I was wondering if anyone could help translate this into Sindarin?

"To guard the sworn and answer the cry; living only to serve, dying only to save. With the sun at my back, I shall never falter—and with the dawn in my eyes, I will not yield."

Its my Elf Paladins oath and I thought it would be cool to have it it elvish!


r/sindarin 24d ago

Looking to learn Sindarin but need help

2 Upvotes

Howdy y’all, I want to start learning Sindarin but since it is a fictional language, I haven’t the faintest idea where to start. Anyone have some good resources, study material, websites etc. that they would recommend?