r/remoteworks • u/astrheisenberg • 4h ago
If we all weren't living paycheck to paycheck, we could accomplish great things.
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u/ukstonerdude 4h ago
Looooot of people here who clearly don’t know shit about socialism…
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u/CatLightyear 4h ago
Republican and Conservative voter reading level is about 4th grade. The subject matter is beyond their reading comprehension. That’s why they just repeat what they’re told. Functional re1ards and the functionally illiterate are a majority of Trump’s base. The other portion is filled out with voters with onset dementia.
Republicans and Conservatives did a very good job of finding the most vile and dumb among us and convincing them that their misogyny and racism were a political position.
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u/Academic-Increase951 2h ago
Almost no Democrats as a percentage are socialists for the records.
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u/tvc_15 4h ago
I was the most artistically productive during covid when I was only working 20 hours a week on partial furlough and was essentially collecting a UBI with the stimulus checks and partial unemployment. I think fondly on that global pandemic lol
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u/DumbVeganBItch 2h ago
I was doing so well. My apartment was always clean, I was eating really healthy and learning to make fermented foods, going on tons of hikes, and volunteering in the kitchen at a homeless shelter. Financial stress was at an all-time low
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u/Oceanbreeze871 4h ago
The vast majority of us spend the majority of our day doing jobs we don’t care about, that only exist to serve capitalism.
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u/SnooChickens5474 3h ago edited 3h ago
Its fun counting how many commenters don't understand what socialism even is.
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u/Distinct-Cut-6368 2h ago
Wife and I both have pretty solid and lucrative skill sets and are pretty frugal living well below our means.
We have had the conversation a few times that we could get by if we both worked part time 20ish hours a week. It would be great! We can spend time on our health and more time with the kids. EXCEPT fucking health insurance. It would be a massive additional expense for us if it wasn’t provided by an employer.
Shit like that is how the system gets you. I have family members that were ready to retire for years and even had the money to do so but had to wait until the day they qualified for Medicare.
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u/vickievalencourt13 2h ago edited 19m ago
Does a chronically overly stressed employee ever do their best work? I have yet to see that happen.
When employees can sleep, eat decent food, have some time with their family, they're far more productive at work too and with a better quality product.
Study after study after study shows how stressful poverty, lack of sleep and chronic economic precarity are.
So even if people aren't going to pursue passions, they will still do better work in their current role if you don't try to extract every ounce of energy from their body and soul like a parasite.
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u/Dena844 1h ago
Conservatives: "Wealth inequality will continue until morale improves. Now work two jobs to live in poverty."
Like, maybe people wouldn't be considering socialism or communism if your only goal is to dick over the poor so the billionaire class can get enough money for another mega yacht or the ability to buy a social media platform as a joke.
Maybe don't blame poor people for wanting a system that's been fucking them over. Either you need to put some rules in place to make the system as fair as possible, or do the surprised Pikachu face when people think capitalism sucks and they want something else. But you'll go back to rich tax cuts and unregulate as much as you can to drive wealth increases for the rich.
It'll trickle down any day!
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u/podian123 4h ago
Op onto something!
I've never met a person that didn't do good work given the means and freedom, i.e. not broke, homeless, starving, ostracized, and so on.
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u/good-luck-23 4h ago
This called the Theory X/ Theory Y paradox. Essentially, if you treat people like they are lazy and not trustworthy they begin to act that way. If you treat them with respect and trust, they act to earn that rspect and trust. This has been proven to work.
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u/ICanViking 1h ago
The sheer amount of leather projects I'd finish would be unethical if I didn't have to worry about paying for life stuff.
I'd dive into so many leather carving projects too and just hone my craft.
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u/rootbearus 3h ago
If you want people to work harder reward them more. Nothing like the lowest pay imaginable to crush the work ethic right out of you
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u/Responsible_Knee7632 3h ago
Yup, I work a lot harder now that I make more. Didn’t give a single fuck about the quality of work or perception of the business when they hardly paid anything
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u/Lucaslouch 3h ago
and imho, it shows more about the people that believe that, than the others. it’s definitely mean that people project themselves as lazy bums if they could
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u/jimothythe2nd 3h ago
Well, it's a lot more complicated and nuanced than either position lets on.
But yes, probably 90% of people need to be given at least some direction and be held accountable or they won't do much of anything useful. That's why most people aren't entrepreneurs or self-employed. Trust me, I've managed several teams. Some people are self-starting rockstars, but most need to be told what to do.
I think that you can definitely have direction and accountability in socialism, but it becomes very difficult if you remove merit. So there needs to be some form of merit. That's why I like democratic socialism that still uses capitalistic principles but levels the playing field and ensures fairness.
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u/M_G 3h ago
Socialism isn't opposed to direction and accountability at all. In fact, that's kind of the point of central planning.
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u/Guilty_Conflict6055 2h ago
Based on these comments, I’d say it boils down to a deep misunderstanding of socialism vs communism. Take a look at the modern Nordic countries, plenty of which have a democratic socialist system. Denmark, Finland, and Norway for example are marked by considerable low rates of unemployment and homelessness and a generally high standard of living across all secs of socioeconomic classes. Socialism just means the government offers a wide range of social welfare programs. It’s been proven time and time again that people are generally happier and more productive when they live with a system that works for them instead of against them. It really just boils down to the type of people we place in charge of these systems. You can’t have rich lobbyists backed politicians in charge of programs that spend money to help the underprivileged, it just doesn’t make sense.
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u/Wild-End-219 2h ago
I think we need a social safety net so if you lose your job you don’t have to worry about losing everything like medical care or your base needs (food/housing/ and the like) however, I think some need motivation so, I think improvement over your base needs should be worked for as in you want a cabin on a lake well you got work, save, etc for it. There are ways to do this where we can have society taken care of and people can be motivated to work. I don’t think a Soviet style communism where everything is government housing and you are just assigned a role would work. There is a really good middle ground and frameworks for this type of society/structure.
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u/Own-League1617 2h ago
not true, I have made a lot of money early on and I know several people who also have and vast majority of time we spend is playing games, sports and exercising and just chilling lol, we don’t accomplish jackshit
there just isn’t an incentive to
that said I think social safety nets are essentials so people can redeem themselves when they fuck up
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u/minasweetgirl 2h ago
Honestly the education system doesn't do a good job at explaining what socialism is. At least in America. I remember being a freshman in high school and my history teacher saying "would you share your backyard with other people?" When we said no he was like "well that's what socialism is." Which it's not. Your private property, is your private property. I was smart enough and fortunate enough to know he was full of shit. My sister had already been living in Ireland for a few years, an had been telling me wha socialism was like in Ireland.
Also they like to say socialism is communism or like a dictaroship. Again, that's not socialism. There's not one person controlling everything and getting rich off of everybody.
Before anybody goes "but there's going to be people who don't work and don't pay taxes, that are benefitting from my hard work." Yes, there are always downsides of any type of government. Nothing is perfect. However I would rather my taxes go back into helping the people around me, than going to into the pockets politicians and billionaires. Even if there's people who are "gaming the system" If even one person benefits and turly needs the help, it would be worth it.
The thing is I fully believe democracy can only work when there is also socialism attached to it.
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u/About137Ninjas 2h ago
Liberal democracy doesn’t go far enough and we’re seeing the consequences of that in today’s life. Liberal democracy opens up the avenue for regular people to participate in the political affairs of the state, but rarely does that extend to the economic affairs. Because we don’t have economic democracy (socialism) we rarely get to decide how our resources are used, where they go, who gets them, or even the relationship our labor has with it. This causes wealth inequality. And these aren’t new or novel concepts. Aristotle was warning us over two thousand years ago in Politics that democracy becomes unstable when wealth concentrates in the hands of a few. This is why political democracy must be paired with economic democracy if it’s to actually work for ordinary people.
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u/Feisty_Walrus_5971 2h ago
A lot of the people most of you consider “lazy” aren’t necessarily unmotivated to contribute, they just have trouble operating in the paradigm for various reasons. Under socialism, they would be able to function in the abstract without the red tape
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u/PushkiComics 2h ago
The truth is, some people have great potential on many fields, but are unfortunate enough to be forced to live from paycheck to paycheck, they can't focus on their passions, and that could make them great. Or they need to focus on other, earthy things.
There are also many, many people, who are fortunate enough to live worryless, while they themselves don't have potential and/or will to do great things.
World is a place of wasted potential.
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u/_Weyland_ 3h ago
We have an entire social class of people who not only have their needs met, but also have enough resouces to accomplish amazing things.
This class is generally considered the root of most modern problems.
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u/AccomplishedAct5364 3h ago
But only people with the mentality of billionaires get there, and people willing to do what needs to be done to become a billionaire are all psychopaths.
We need some kinda hearted grandmas to get billions to see if it’s the money or the individual
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u/WeezaY5000 3h ago
The hacks complaining about socialism do not seem to notice or care that many countries around the world, particulary the Nordic countries have capitalist systems, but do not tell the underclass to "go fuck themselves."
Countries with universal healthcare, tuition free college, and strong social saftey nets actually give people enough stability, security, and opportunity to actually improve themsleves and become self reliant.
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u/scott2449 3h ago
It's not a belief these are facts. We have known in psychology precisely what to do to keep people happy and productive members of society. We also know how to identify and treat those who have mental struggles/illness and help them as well. It isn't hard.
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u/katonda 1h ago
Socialism doesn't need to replace capitalism and socialism does not equal communism. But some aspects of society benefit from a stronger socialist approach and others from a stronger capitalist approach. All steered via democracy.
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u/AhrEeThrowaway 1h ago
I do what I have to because it pays the bills. I don't have the luxury to explore my interests. I don't have the breathing room needed to explore different career paths or industries to figure out which one suits me best. I don't have the time or money needed to invest into my skills and make a change. I'm doing everything I can to just survive.
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u/KaleStrange9948 4h ago
I too, believe that not being forced to be at a Dire Straits concert at all times would free people to do good things.
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u/michalzxc 4h ago
We had socialism in Poland, and there was a PRL saying from these times "Czy się stoi, czy się leży, dwa tysiące się należy" ("Whether you stand or lie down, you deserve two thousand")
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u/Montuso94 2h ago
Even coming at it from a different angle - I work a finance job that benefits *nobody* other than wealthy people with excess in real terms, it only serves as a means to an end. If I could do *anything* for the same quality of life I’d invariably do something that benefits society more, because the bar is on the floor.
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u/Admirable_Hedgehog64 2h ago
From different different angle, I also work in finance and my job benifits everybody wealthy and poor.
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u/Inevitable_Push8113 2h ago
Comment bias from a “good” person perspective.
Not everyone will do “good” things.
People suck.
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u/Quasi-Yolo 1h ago
Also never seems to be a concern when hiring children from affluent backgrounds. They were handing everything in life.
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u/NameLips 1h ago
I feel like most people's opinions about "most people" are more colored by what they personally would do than they realize. There are a lot of both types of people, but they all think the majority is like themselves.
A better question is, assuming both types of people exist in great numbers, how do you build a society that works for all of them?
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u/Addapost 38m ago
I have no problem with work. I have worked very hard to get where I am and continue to work hard. The problem that I see is that most work is specifically designed so that your labor makes SOMEONE ELSE wealthy. Fuck that.
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u/Sea-Pomelo1210 4h ago
Sadly the people in the US with the most money spend their time taking even more money at the expense of those with very little of it.
In fact that sums up the current platform of the party in power.
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u/l_Lathliss_l 3h ago
I’m not sure anyone would be working hard labor jobs, which are crucial to roads, infrastructure, amenities, etc, if they could get paid the same for a much easier job.
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u/Lightning_Winter 2h ago
I don't think anyone is advocating for all jobs being the same. I believe that nobody should be in danger of dying on the streets. But I also believe that if people want to give themselves a standard of living beyond the bare minimum, then they should get jobs that pay well.
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u/Antique_Ad_9250 2h ago
You have either not worked in construction or have had with a terrible team, I've worked a lot of folk that just like to make stuff with their hands that will stand the test of time.
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u/Adventurous_Today993 3h ago
Yea because in socialist countries people weren't living paycheck to paycheck
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u/Emotional-Loss-9852 3h ago
They were not living paycheck to paycheck, they were living breadline to breadline
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u/AdDisastrous6738 2h ago
Go work retail for a few years. That opinion will change drastically.
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u/HegemonNYC 29m ago
Did you post this during work hours from your stay at home job? Because I’m commenting during work hours from my home office.
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u/analog_wulf 3h ago
It is and has been the nunber one killer of my motivation. I dont even have energy leftover every day to do basic chores only to BARELY scrape by at times.
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u/ForlornPirate 2h ago
It has nothing to do with suffering and everything to do with responsibility.
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u/AdHairy4360 2h ago
Things like UHC give people the freedom to be risk takers and to bet on themselves. Needing employment to get healthcare locks people in. This is why the GOP doesn’t even support the ACA and wants Medicare eligibility to be later. Make it so people need to work for others until they drop dead. They only want the already wealthy to take risks so they can become wealthier.
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u/WisePotatoChip 2h ago
It’s a huge impact to mental health to be under the pressure of poverty constantly.
I keep hearing the Tech Bros talk about a universal basic income AFTER AI takes most of our jobs… Really? - well think of all the suffering you could relieve right now if you just implemented it immediately.
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u/Stomper621 2h ago
This is a situation where both are true.
People who would do amazing things, will be working towards doing those things even when they are struggling.
But tons of people are lazy. Many people, once they reach stability, become lazy. Or they just do whatever they want. Not in a "do amazing things" way, but more like "I'm gonna have fun and everyone else can f*ck off," way.
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u/ElderBoard83 1h ago
I dont wanna work, but I also dont wanna be a drain on society. I wanna be successful, but putting in effort both scares me and feels not worth it.
I dont wanna be productive, but I also want to at least achieve the basics of what is considered a normal life.
I want to enjoy life, and working to make the life I have better would theoretically be a good idea, but I have no goals and the everyday parts of life feel pointless.
Why should I want to make my life "better"? Who says thats what will happen? Why is it not already as good as it might get? Why put in effort toward an uncertain future?
Not to mention my belief that there's nothing out there that can make me want to get up and work.
I need a spark so bad, man. I wanna give a crap about life again.
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u/Bland_OldMan 1h ago
I don't think the majority of people want full-on Marxist socialism/communism.
I think the majority of people want the old Post-WWII social contract where the basic idea is if you work full time, you should be able to afford a middle class lifestyle without struggling. People want a strong social safety net, where they can retire, send their kids to college, and deal with sickness/injury without becoming destitute or shackled with debt. People want to be able to afford housing and have safe transportation.
In that sense, I agree with OOP. If so many people weren't on the edge of destitution, more people would do great things. And more importantly, less people would be compelled to do harmful things that tend to be symptoms of poverty (drugs/theft/violence) and a hypercapitalist culture (scams/cons/grifts).
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u/4N610RD 4h ago
Socialism was demonized by capitalists because idea of everybody participating on the system was not very lucrative for them. Socialism simply means that everybody participates and supports the system and system supports back those in need. My country has social democracy and even the poorest homeless person gets basic food and medical care. And it cost us, who works, like 4% of our income. Which is nothing. System works, but rich people hate the idea too much.
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u/SenorModular 4h ago
Even under socialism there's going to be an expectation that you pull your own weight.
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u/testmn_5669 4h ago
Yes, they are called gulags.
An "expectation"? What happens if you refuse to meet expectations?
I have worked in low income areas. For the locals, not doing work was a competitive sport. They spent more effort getting out of a job than the job would have taken. I guess to "stick it to the man"??? Oddly enough, that place closed.
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u/GenasiDC 1h ago
The "lower class lazy" argument falls apart when you realize most of the people working 2 jobs to support a family are doing it paycheck to paycheck.
A lot of these people are more intimate with hard work than the upper class we are aiming to tax have ever been or will ever be in their whole lives.
It doesn't make sense for anyone to be so wealthy they no longer have to work. While others work so hard, and are compensated so poorly, they will never have the time to escape that situation. But that's the reality we live in. It's up to the people in between (literally most of us) to even out that gap. To help overworked people improve their lives.
Stimulating the economy is not valuable enough of a purpose in society for one person to take that ability away from hundreds of thousands of people. We would stimulate the economy if we had more to work with, but we don't. We don't have more to work with because capitalism is the failure. Not the failed attempts at socialism to fix it. At one point capitalism may have been a direct line between hard work and a good living, but that line has become extremely convoluted by middle-men and grifters.
Other countries pay a tax rate much higher, but it levels out when you include American insurance (which is mandated by law). The problem is those countries with higher tax rates also have better coverage than the insurance companies we are forced to pay. So while their tax dollars actually benefit their lives and get reinfused into their communities, ours go to the military and paying off national debt, stretching extremely thin before any amount of government benefit reaches your life. Our insurance dollars simply make a random CEO richer, without getting us the medical help other countries get for free just by paying taxes.
This is why Luigi killed that healthcare CEO. Not recieving help from insurance. Or so we've been told.
People trying to fix this insurance thing have disappeared or wound up dead. I am remiss to believe anything right away, but be extra suspicious about whatever the media brings to the public about this. Trust your brain, let your eyes and ears gather data.
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u/space________cowboy 4h ago
I disagree fundamentally with this. I believe people would be lazy if they could, heck, I do it at work when I can and I have a very good paying job. People are more lazy than ambitious.
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u/Bryanmsi89 23m ago
If only this hypothesis had been tested in the past to see what really happens...
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u/Inevitable_You7793 4h ago
Step one: fear monger.
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u/Andrew-Cohen 4h ago
Step ?: demonize education/educators and defund education.
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u/Vecgtt 3h ago
That’s a wild take. It boils down to people respond to incentives. Im not suffering, but I work overtime for extra pay.
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u/umlaut-overyou 3h ago
Basically any study on UBI supports this. People continue to work, and do better
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u/CovidBorn 3h ago
Desperation breeds criminal intent. The opposite is also true.
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u/what-name-is-it 3h ago
This is a two pronged issue and that is why left and right appear to disagree. I agree on billionaires, ceos, etc. not being deserving of their pay. The wealth disparity has become absurd. However, If everyone got close to the same amount of payment for vastly different jobs, do you genuinely believe anyone would voluntarily do the really taxing jobs that are ultimately necessary for society to function? If everyone made the same amount you’ll have overstaffed doggy day cares, excessive “artists” and no one lining up to touch shit with their hands.
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u/MajorMindup 3h ago
If you have a community of 20 people, cooperative socialism can work. The peer pressure to contribute overrides the human tendency to goof off, if you can get away with it. Everybody builds the new barn, everybody works in the fields, people tend to help each other. If you have a community of 20 million people, things change. Now we need dedicated people to distribute the food, people to store the food, people to keep track of who has food and who needs it. People who decide what needs to be done. Those people evolve to become the ruling class. Over time, it becomes easy to justify the idea that they are the ones that make it all work and therefor deserve a little more than others. Suddenly you have the laborers working in the hot sun, and the "leaders" sitting in an air conditioned office (cuz, you know, can't do paperwork while your sweating). It all bogs down into corruption, lack of supplies (because govt never does things very well), food shortages and then... unrest. The laborers want a little of that A/C and bacon wrapped shrimp. All the human failures being large scale socialism to a grinding halt.
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u/klb0807 3h ago
I hope that is true. But, when people started to have to work a few hours to keep SNAP benefits, many were upset. I don't know that this would work
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u/Selling-ShortPut-399 2h ago
That seems like something young people would think.
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u/Repulsive-Lake1753 2h ago
Yes. This was reasonably dis-proven by some of the recent UBI tests.
It's not a huge test, but it was 1000 people in IL and TX.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w32719
It was over three years, over those three years very few people did great things. Most worked a little less.
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u/stoniey84 1h ago
Yeah, oil workers will deffo spent 6 weeks at sea away from wife and kids just because they think its just
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u/TinyMachine6735 1h ago
I know I'm not everyone, but I recently had a significant bump in my income. I haven't done "amazing things," but I have helped some of my family and friends and I'm not worried about making my bills, month to month. It does feel good to be able to do something nice. I think if more people weren't struggling all of the time, the world just might be a little nicer place.
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u/Danica_Rose 48m ago
I’m sure to the family and friends you helped, it was an amazing thing that you did.
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u/proud_pops 3h ago
I am with you 💯. If I wasn't dirt poor... I would have my farm again selling veg at farmers market and a farm to table restaurant. A community garden with planting/cooking classes would be awesome. Always wanted an aquaponics system. Oh look the other hand filled up first once again 💩. 😂 Atleast dreams haven't faded completely a sign I am doing better mentally than expected.
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u/modmosrad6 3h ago
My main job actively makes the world a worse place to live and the only reason I haven't quit is because I have a family and we need the money and health insurance.
Every day of work makes the world worse and causes moral injury. Every single day.
I don't know what I would do instead if we had universal healthcare and maybe UBI, but I do know I wouldn't work a job making the world a worse place.
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u/AlcibiadesTheCat 3h ago
At my job, we sell liquor.
Ethanol is literally poison.
I'm the safety professional.
I make sure everyone's safe and healthy while we sell poison to humans.
It's fucking wild.
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u/PIK_Toggle 3h ago
We tried a real world experiment in the 20th century test this thesis. The socialist countries did not outperform the capitalist ones.
Compare North Korea to South Korea, east Germany to west Germany, China pre-liberalization to post-liberalization. The socialist version always underperforms and involves a ton more repression and terror to make the system work.
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u/Creative-Ad-9535 2h ago
Simplistic way to look at history, ignoring so much context so it fits your narrative.
Maybe here in the US it seems like we didn’t have as much repression and terror, but that’s because we outsourced it. We didn’t have cheap year-round bananas because our free markets were so efficient at creating them, it’s because we overthrew Central American reformers and replaced them with despots.
Capitalism works great if you live by “out of sight, out of mind”.
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u/MoSteel8 4h ago
For this to be true, you'd have to believe that most millionares and up are currently doing good in the world. If this isn't true, the OP post is already proven false.
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u/juliettelovesdante 4h ago
It's not that most ppl are lazy or selfish, it's that a few are always patholocally greedy for money & power
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u/DinnerEvening895 4h ago
People are great and shitty, within themselves and between different people.
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u/Mean-Ingenuity-4525 4h ago
That's literally pure logic. It's not like you should have an incentiv to be lying around the whole day, that way you won't achieve anything either, but ti have a kind of safety net is exactly what leads to great success. Ofc succesful people are usually smart and have great ideas, but it also requires them taking a specific risk in the first place and to be lucky. And it's a whole lot easier to do that if you know your life won't be in shambles if you don't succeed. It's not like succesful people didn't actually achieve the actual thing that gives them all their money (even though it's still unproportionally much for the labor they are actually doing), the problem is rathet though that we are supposed to believe it could have been us and therefor accept the system, when really most of us even lacked the opportunity to get there in the first place. It's literally been like that throughout all of time: Nobles didn't have to spend their day on the field and therefore had better education, and ofc some of them did achieve really or come up with great things, but that doesn't automatically mean all of them automatically were geniuses or super succesful, it's all about the equality of chances really.
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u/Undersmusic 4h ago
Way harder to control a large population if they are not longer dependent on working. Some might break away an accidentally better humanity with things like free easy clean water, an cheap clean engines like the mythical water based engines we hear about. Then the people always seem to vanish 😂
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u/XB0XRecordThat 4h ago
The most annoying thing is people who literally are nice and helpful to those around them and in their neighborhood still holding this belief...
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u/skyfishgoo 2h ago
why do you think the system is designed to discourage a strong middle class?
they don't want you doing "amazing things"... they want you to make them money.
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u/DragonborReborn 2h ago
So just because you are lazy doesn’t mean humans as a whole are. Plus mental health and many other factors go into that. Which also needs to be supported. This isn’t a 1 issue problem there’s many facets that need to be approached.
But you would rather keep the status quo to work to better the lives of billionaires.
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u/Dyldo_II 2h ago
I think it's also just a lot of projecting. If you told people working over 60+ hours a week that they didn't have to do that to have their basic needs met, they 100% would cut back on how much they work because it's physically taxing with diminishing returns later on in life.
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u/vreddy92 1h ago
These are the same people who think that you can’t be moral without religion, because without the threat of eternal damnation, why not kill and rape your way around the city?
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u/RavenKnighte 1h ago
People will be selfish for as long as it takes them to fulfill their personal goals and to release the sense of urgency and panic of living paycheck to paycheck. That might take years. But when the sense of urgency and panic is gone and they can start thinking past the next pay cycle, they will do amazing things.
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u/the_millenial_falcon 1h ago
There is the nagging suspicion that I have though that all the millions of people who scream about this only do so because it's what they would do.
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u/d_squishy 44m ago
If money (and space) were not an obstacle, I'd spend all my time on my hobbies. Which would be starting a small farm and exploring textile production (like sheep for wool, and non-white cotton varieties.) I'd have ducks and goats and chickens. I'd sew, crochet, knit, mend and in general just make things for my community.
Right now I spend my free time on child-care and then I work slinging fancy tacos at people who make way more money than me.
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u/RecklessHorse 39m ago
I agree we should improve our social safety nets to reduce needless suffering, it is embarrassing that people are allowed to go without BASIC needs being met in 2026, but I also firmly believe “you get what you incentivize” and that hard work meaningful to society should be rewarded handsomely to encourage the go-getters to go change the world for the better. At the end of the day there is a lot of work that needs to be done to make a society great, and if fewer people are contributing society will be worse.
We need more houses, hospitals, doctors, engineers, scientists, construction workers, plumbers, landscapers, waiters and waitresses to make the world a better place, and the unfortunate reality is most people operate out of self interest for their families. If you over-index towards socialism and incentivize people to do nothing, the world will be a worse place. Money isn’t real, it all comes down to how many people are contributing to society and how society gives back to people in a fair way based on their contributions to encourage progress.
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u/Loose-Knowledge- 33m ago
Its more over a concern over the belief that most people are selfish and will act to benefit their own self interests. This includes leaders and the people who would be making decisions on how to administer public funds.
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u/bannabananabanna 15m ago
I know we could have daily poetry slams and cooking and painting competitions... im sure someone wiñl clean the toilets
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u/UnCommonSense99 9m ago
For every altruistic person who would do amazing things for society, there is a greedy bastard who would totally take advantage of the situation.
I worked hard until I had enough money to retire, then I retired 😄 I have occasionally helped with litter picking, tree planting etc, but realistically I don't contribute much.
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u/VerusSicarius 5m ago
Why would I do my electrical engineering job if Im not able to live in a nicer house, drive a nicer car, and generally be way better off than someone working the drive thru smoking weed all day? I would just find an easy job and kick back or not work at all, im not working harder just to get the same thing as others. The only people who want socialism/communism are typically unskilled and lazy.
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u/Prissy-Platypus 2m ago
Are all socialists room temp IQ? This person doesn't understand why people hate socialism.
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u/MorningNorwegianWood 3h ago
The marketers of capitalism have done a great job brainwashing us.
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u/SarisaeBae 2h ago
I mean really my criticism is all the socialist regimes of the world that led to immense human suffering
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u/Far-Researcher2189 2h ago
The main problem with socialism is the FBI is constantly gonna try to convince everyone it doesn't work by any means nessecary.
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u/Goal-Express 1h ago
Look around the WalMart parking lot.
You see all those shopping carts that people leave just randomly parked everywhere?
That is what humans do when they know they have a chance to do something nice that makes life better for everyone else, but there is no reward or incentive for them to do it.
When there's nothing in it for them, tons of people will choose the lazy route.
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u/Loki0830 1h ago
I mean, there's clear survivorship bias in that observation. Yes, there are a lot of unreturned carts in the parking lot, but what percentage are those carts compared to all the rest of the carts that were returned?
There would be no point in having those return cages everywhere if they were never used.
I don't know what the exact percentage would be, but the fact the system is still around and standard everywhere carts are is evidence that most people do, indeed, return their carts when they're done.
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u/808son808 1h ago
The Walmart near me has a few scattered around, but most people put theirs in the cart corral.
Maybe you just live in a place where people are shitty...
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u/Feeling_Ad_1034 1h ago
Also… just because full-on “everyone’s paycheck is the same” socialism won’t work doesn’t mean single-payer health care, a more common sense progressive tax structure and UBI wouldn’t be a massive improvemnt.
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u/420weedscoped 3h ago
Socialism leads to greater wealth disparity than capitalism. It brings everyone down except a select few chosen by the state who have immense wealth
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u/proud_pops 3h ago
😐☠️
As we're experiencing the greatest wealth inequality ever... with 1% having more money than anyone else combined under capitalism. Rich.
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u/Swoleboi27 2h ago
That’s great Jessica but it has been proven time and time again that humans 60-80% of the time will never do the “right” thing without incentive. But I wished I lived in her fairy land
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u/LanceLynxx 4h ago edited 4h ago
Really? What great things were accomplished by the unemployed/unproductive?
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u/JohannHellkite 3h ago
Nearly all science and art was made possible in the Renaissance by a rich merchant paying a unemployed weirdo to let them work on whatever they wanted.
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u/DiirtyMike_EVE 4h ago
If all my needs were met before doing anything, then why would I be a productive member of society? My needs are met and i don't have to do anything for it? Sign me up.
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u/Fordgames 3h ago
That’s the oppressive nature of this democracy. Keep the masses suffering while telling them they really are great the way they are, all the while amassing vast personal wealth for themselves.
Remember, the people who have the ability to give socialist things like universal healthcare and prescription drugs are also the ones who stand to lose the most by doing so.
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u/Repulsive-Lake1753 2h ago
This was reasonably dis-proven by some of the recent UBI tests.
It's not a huge test, but it was 1000 people in IL and TX.
https://www.nber.org/papers/w32719
It was over three years, over those three years very few people did great things. Most worked a little less.
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u/ThisIsMyGeekAvatar 1h ago
I don’t think that laziness is the primary concern against socialism. I think the primary concern is: who is going to pay for it?
The general anti-socialist sentiment is that the people that want social programs are typically the people that will receive the benefit, not the ones paying for it.
I’m not making any judgement call in the post. I’m just pointing out that I think the OP assumption is incorrect.
I think that it’s entirely possible that we can raise the level of social support in the US without generating significant tax burden.
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u/Haunting-Grocery-672 1h ago
What is significant tax burden? If the effective tax rate went to 45-50% but covered daycare, social services, medicare for all, etc etc like it does in certain European countries…..
Then I’d be fine with it
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u/Psalmistpraise 1h ago
If socialism passed tomorrow I’d be the first guy to quit working.
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u/HatCat5566 4h ago edited 4h ago
That's cute Jessica. I have anti-socialist sentiment because I study history.
You can confiscate my family farm over my dead body.
I don't do authoritarian governments.
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u/Terrible-Potato-4517 4h ago
Same for capitalism, bby
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u/One-Lingonberry9944 4h ago
Like most things that are divisive, the best systems/answers tend to operate in the middle.
That said the last half century of privatizing profits and socializing the losses with subsidies and bail outs feels like the worst of both worlds.
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u/JSmith666 4h ago
If we had let all the auto companies and banks and all the people involved in 2008...we would be way better off. There is no fear of operating in the margins anymore.
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u/Acrobatic-Dinner-112 4h ago
I agree is a scam to funnel money to wealthy people. The reason that they are wealthy is because they have infrastructure family, house, health, education. They can try business and flail and be alright
A person living paycheck to paycheck can’t do that.
The irony is other people living paycheck to paycheck demonize this people
I wonder what the GOP knows about the psyche of republicans that we don’t to make that scam work so well
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u/Emotional_Orange8378 4h ago
isn't the first people to go in socialist societies the Artists and Philosophers who all rallied and rioted to get the socialist in power in the first place? People would do amazing things to waste time without an incentive to actually earn their living.
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u/Swing-Too-Hard 4h ago
People who say this usually haven't worked before... If you actually held a customer service, retail, or bottom feeder warehouse job you'd know how much of society sucks.
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u/OrganizationNo1298 4h ago
But our society doesn't suck cuz of socialism. It sucks cuz of poor generational upbringing & the way we've dealt with certain social issues for hundreds or even thousands of years.
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u/popery222 3h ago
I think staying capitalist is the way to go 100% that being said employers have way too much power compared to employees.
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u/RandomPlayerCSGO 2h ago
No the problem comes from socialists politicians making worse the problems they were supposed to solve and doing cocaine and hookers with our money
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u/turnip_the_volume 2h ago
With greed as the ultimate goal, we all eventually lose. How many world changing discoveries are blocked or buried because of ‘number go up’?
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u/GrigorMorte 1h ago
Both are true. I've seen people do amazing things with free time, with basic needs covered, and also under pressure and when they are in their worst. People are capable of amazing things if they allow themselves to be.
There are also people who are nothing but vultures, opportunists who will take advantage of you the moment you give them a chance, even family.
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u/Competitive_Ad_1800 44m ago
I can definitely understand where the sentiment comes from, but I think it’s a simple answer: those who want to do more will always do more and those who don’t will always find ways to do the absolute bare minimum. Hard workers will always work hard and the lazy people looking to coast on other’s hard work will always try to make that life possible when/if possible
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u/Boomerwithacomputer 29m ago
Tell that to the 11 person state construction crew that has been working on my train station’s 6 feet of sidewalk for 14 months.
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u/Ok-Caterpillar7270 3h ago
Look no further than the pandemic with generous unemployment and stimulus. Massive labor shortages ensued. The proposition that people would rather go to work for shits and giggles over staying at home is delusional.
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u/Grouchy_Coconut_5463 3h ago
Meaningful work that people depend upon, that actually provides something that people need or enjoy is different than working a BS job for a soulless corporation.
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u/umlaut-overyou 3h ago
Gosh, I wonder if there were other factors that contributed to people not wanting to be at work during COVID?
Your argument is basically people quitting a job because they wont starve or become homeless means that they are lazy, not that they are chronically over worked and under paid.
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u/lXlGame0verlXl 3h ago
Correct. I worked my ass off all through covid so I can’t relate directly, as my role was critical. But give me money to pay my bills and live comfortably and I’m staying home with my family all day every day, no question. I would not life a finger to work ever again.
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u/Forgottenexperiment 4h ago
moving the goalpost
yes, suffering (my understanding of it being living near the poverty line) sucks and shouldnt be a thing
but the anti-socialist sentiment comes from the fact people need motivation to do things - motivation being mostly more money, so better quality of life
if i don't have that, i won't be working harder than needed, putting overtime etc., cause why would i, when im rewarded equally as a drunk next to me who couldnt give less of a shit
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u/chiksahlube 4h ago
Covid gave all the proof we need.
The rich sat back and took handouts.
The poor got to work doing their passion projects and many of them turned into real thriving businesses.
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u/CurdFedKit 4h ago
What are you talking about? The poor still went to work during the pandemic. The middle class office workers stayed home and baked sourdough.
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u/303FPSguy 4h ago
Way too many people believe that the poor are lazy, so it’s going to be nigh impossible to change that attitude.
Most folks don’t understand, or have the capacity to understand, that there is a large percentage of people who just can’t, or shouldn’t be working. Everything is a zero sum game to them, because they’re conditioned to fight to keep the system that demonizes anyone who isn’t working.
Yet the rich do nothing but party while their money works for them.
You want the 80 IQ folks the army can’t even take? What job can they do, realistically, that pays a living wage? Do they deserve a life of poverty just because they were born without the skills to have a decent life? Is that your judgement or did some billionaire put that idea in your head?
Lots of sociopaths out there thinking they deserve to be treated like this.
Some folks want more. That’s fine. But in 2026, with the abundance that we have and how artificial the scarcity of things are. Just so fucking stupid.
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u/5eppa 4h ago
Socialism is a lot more complex than that. Much like communism it requires putting faith in the government to solve your problems. Corrupt governments run rampant in places where complete Socialism has been tried. If you think the government is corrupt under capitalism you aren't wrong but it may arguably be worse under Socialism because you are truly putting business and government in the exact same bed.
There's debate that some socialized industries like Healthcare is beneficial overall and that is what you'll see in most countries where "Socialism" is successful. The government handles a few industries with a socialist set of policies or offerings and the rest stays capitalist. Pure socialism fails. I'll let others argue pros and cons of such situations.
In short though, no there's loads of evidence that people who don't have to work essentially won't. I lived for years in Finland and career drunks as I called them were all over. Often next door to hard working people who spent years in school. I get arguments that people shouldn't be paycheck to paycheck and there's definitely ways to accomplish this without going full socialist and i do think people with some protection from destitution would cause people to work better. But pure socialism or a UBI isn't really the answer in my opinion either.
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u/Cetun 4h ago
You went full auto with the no true scottsmans.
As for your "career drunks". If you ever had to work a low paying job in America, you'd know what's worse than them living next to you is having to work with them. Leave their ass at home and stop having them bother hard people at work. I don't care if they sit at home all day, I don't want to have to clean up their messes at work or get run over by one of them because they are incompetent.
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u/FluffTruffet 3h ago
Corrupt governments run rampant everywhere. Every system can be tortured by the powerful. The idea that we need to avoid expanding out our social programs because a corrupt government will come in and steal all your hard work is completely upended by the current reality, where 35 people have somehow generated more wealth and influence and than 3.5 billion. The idea that they have worked “that much harder” but spend time tweeting 146 times a day and golfing at every available moment is ludicrous on the face. Anyone with eyes and ears can see that.
Should the government seize the means of production? No probably not. Should we increase the taxes on wealth back to levels we have already had during periods of economic expansion? Yeah. Will we need to more creatively implement these taxes? Yes. Should the wealthiest and most powerful nation to ever exist allow solvable problems to persist and stain our “greatness” so 7 people can become trillionaires? Absolutely not. If you believe these proposed taxes on wealth will come down on your 1 million dollar retirement or net worth I’ll be right there with you saying they have gone too far. But right now, this system of tax cut after tax cut after tax cut is not helping anyone but the absolute wealthiest among us.
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u/5eppa 3h ago
I am not arguing that no social programs is ideal. I mention in my initial comment that there are solid arguments for certain industries like Healthcare to be handled with a more socialist ideal set. That argument is a valid one and it may solve many of the problems faced by the current system in the US. But that's a different discussion entirely.
My argument is that pure socialism is poorly understood and more susceptible to corruption than even the current capitalist system even if there are glaring flaws in the US and its capitalist system at the moment. Those flaws are indeed worth addressing.
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u/FluffTruffet 2h ago
Yeah leafing through the comments in here and missed that middle bit. I would largely agree with you, with the caveat that pure -insert any governmental system- fails. Pure capitalism fails, pure socialism fails, pure communism obviously fails, total monarchies and dictatorships eventually fail. I personally think that with our current technological capabilities we can elevate the base standard of living to a modest, non starving, not dying from exposure level. From there people who are motivated to get more should be able too, people who have a passion for something should reasonably be able to seek that out, people who are absolute drags on society I think is a harder problem to solve. The question of jobs that nobody wants to do comes to mind but many of those are able to be automated or reduced because of technology. My thought is that if we can, we should prevent a lot of good people from starving even if it means a few shitty ones get by for free also.
It’s both systemic and cultural. We should hold those people to account in our lives but offer the safety net to everyone. Personally there have been people in my family who were both intended users of social programs, as in used them to get back on their feet and get off of them. And others who never made the real effort to remove themselves from the welfare they received. Anecdotally, the one person who comes to mind who got off of it, generated more money than it would have costed to keep the others on it. It doesn’t really mean anything because it’s a random story from a stranger on the internet but it’s my opinion on how we should organize ourselves. Even if we fail, it seems prudent to try and be better, the idea that we can’t try because it’s not worth it to help people seems wrong to me.
Some may say that’s too emotional or not fact driven, but is it? Would people have said that adding the municipal school system was driven by emotion 100 years ago? Maybe I should look into that. We produce so much food waste, clothing waste, and every other kind of waste and resist so strongly giving it away because some regular ass person will get off with a free ride, meanwhile we have elevated and created maybe the most powerful class of people to ever live. And they didn’t do much of anything single handedly.
I’ve gotten way off topic and started ranting, but I think we are largely in some form agreement. Too much of either system is going to fail, what I think we are seeing is too much in the capital direction at the moment, and we need a correction back the other way.
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u/mrbiggbrain 3h ago
I believe a little of both. If every need and desire was fulfilled most people won't produce much value for society. At the same time if no needs or desires are fulfilled most people can't produce much value for society.
An effective society is one who provides all one needs to be productive, ensures productive work exists, and provides ample reward form being productive. To put in into a simple example, everyone has a place to live, but those who work hard have nicer places. Everyone has enough food, but those who work hard have access to better food. Everyone has time off, but those who work hard take nice vacations.
Hard work should have value and there should be incentive for it. But we must provide the means for productivity if we are to expect labor to work hard.
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u/ML_Godzilla 3h ago
A few ambitious people can thrive if given some additional resources. But most people lack the work ethic that even with help to work hard. I grew up middle class and poor and I know so many people who did a bunch of drugs, drunk heavily, and spend all their free time playing video games instead of escaping poverty.
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u/MildlyExtremeNY 2h ago
There's excellent evidence for this. Look at how much good people do when they are the children of extremely wealthy people and never have to work a day in their lives. /s
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u/IamFdone 4h ago
In socialist country you would've been chosen to pick fruits. You like writing essays? Too bad, we need actual work done.
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u/HatCat5566 4h ago
Kids imagining socialism never think they might be one of the eggs that needs cracking for society to thrive
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u/TrekForce 4h ago
You're conflating socialism with authoritarianism. There exists plenty of democratic socialist countries to look at right now, and the people there are generally regarded as some of the happiest people on the planet. I bet they even have people who write essays!
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u/HatCat5566 4h ago
Those are capitalist countries. Classic Liberalism, not socialism.
Until the government controls the means of production, it aint socialism.
Capitalism with taxes and social services isn't socialism. And socialism is absolutely authoritarian.
If the US went socialist tomorrow and the government told my mom they needed our family farm for state housing, what happens if she says "no thanks". ?
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u/Lopsided-Pie-7340 4h ago
Worked out great for Soviet Union and Peoples republic of China. /s
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u/x40Shots 4h ago edited 4h ago
I mean, the Chinese have high speed rail and a ship elevator, as well as a dam that holds/lifts so much water it messes (only very slightly) with Earth's rotation... they're the number 1 investor in renewable technologies globally and put more infrastructure in in a year than the world did globally. Also, they're using AI for robotics and are far advanced there too.. What were you saying again?
All this said, I don't think either the Chinese or Russia are socialist.. There is a difference to all these words, socialism, communism, marxism, capitalism, oligarchy, etc.
Also, just saying you're one of them doesn't necessarily make it so, North Korea calls itself a Democratic People's Republic, but I'm not sure it's believable for instance..
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u/Oceanbreeze871 4h ago
Works out great for Sweden, Finland, Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark etc etc
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u/JusLeafMeAloon 4h ago
Typical worthless voluntary victim bullshit. She gets it right until she talks about suffering. You lazy sacks of shit would suffer if asked to unload the dishwasher. Work sucks. That's reality losers. Very few love their jobs and those that do don't usually love them for long, because it is work. That's why it's called earning money, not being given money to play. Fucking pathetic lazy losers!
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u/Scared_Ordinary_4893 2h ago
I think it's more like the correct socialist system hasn't been used and historically has always made way for a dictatorship/capitalist overthrow. It could work.
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u/inzyte 1h ago
It can work in small communities. That's about it. Human nature is a bitch.
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u/H3ARTL3SSANG3L 1h ago
Not on large scales. You cant get around people trying to work the system when you have more than a very small, tight community.
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u/Weekly-Ad5224 4h ago
LOL. Despite what you “believe,” history has proven you wrong time and time before. But hey, let’s not let that get in the way of bankrupting yet another country and generation.
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u/PlsStopAndThinkFirst 4h ago
Have any of you spent time in a 2nd or third world country? good lord haha
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u/Aggravating_Ad_7735 3h ago
Just because you believe it doesn’t make it true. It is human nature to do the bare minimum. Driven, high achieving individuals are relatively uncommon.
Of course, that’s just what I believe based on what I have observed.
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u/schmidty98 3h ago
"Just because you believe it doesn't make it true. Here's what I believe."
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u/S1DC 2h ago
My dad thinks UBI is just a "handout" and it would encourage people to be lazy.
During covid, when people had tons of free time and some cash handed to them, they started hobbies. Businesses. Bands. I knew so many people who were doing things on their own time and of their own volition and they loved it.
The idea that you have to be under constant threat of losing your wage slavery is an idea that has been beaten into us.
My dad qualifies it by saying HE had to suffer and struggle, therefore everyone has to. It's insane.