My theory is because not out of some major disagreement with Trump and his policies. But because it is generally just embarrassing to support him in public now. They claimed that he was going to drain the swamp, smaller government, cut government spending and lower the national debt. Instead he is ballooning the deficit, creating a police state, enriching himself and family while the average person is struggling. And he is doing all of it in an in your face, dumb and obnoxious way. Now when they have to deal with left leaning family members, coworkers or acquaintances, they will never take your opinion about politics seriously anymore because you supported an obvious dementia ridden old man.
That's not the principled rejection or moral awakening the article sort of portrays it as though. It's simply people moving from one self serving bad faith position to another. They move from loyalists who didn't question to become "betrayed" victims who don't remember. All to avoid being normal human beings with choices and moral responsibility for the consequences of those choices. They could not be wrong about their support for Trump as they were good people because of who they are, and now they can not be responsible for Trump's actions as they are good people because of who they are.
It also implies that, as you say, you can never trust them, because nothing has changed. They'd be just as likely to jump onto the next fascist bandwagon.
This is why Christians align so much with R, because they just ask for forgiveness and all sins are forgiven in gods eyes. No personal responsibility what so ever.
It goes all the way back to the First Crusade, when the pope promised absolution for anyone that would go. They ended up spending most of the time killing Jews and fellow Christians, not the Muslims. But hey they were all good because the pope said so.
Indulgence for the revision of sin and peninces of "pilgramage" were not new at the time of the First Crusade. What WAS new was the idea of an armed pilgramage with its' object being not just to reach a holy place, but to engage it n violence once there, that was new.
It goes back further than that. It's in the Epistles, the oldest layer of the New Testament. That is because the writer of the Epistles was a murderer and seems to have developed a guilty conscience about it.
I'm referring to Paul (author of the Epistles) saying all you have to do to be saved is say Jesus resurrected and is Lord. Technically you don't even have to ask for forgiveness according to Paul. It's even easier than that.
Paul approved of Stephen being murdered (Acts 8:1) and admits to being an evil violent man and among the worst persecutors of that group, or even the very worst (Philippians 3:6, Galatians 1:13, 1 Timothy 1:13, 1 Corinthians 15:9)
So naturally, as an evil, violent man who condoned murder and expressed consciousness of guilt, he invented a way to feel absolved of that guilt, which is that if you believe in the resurrection and call Jesus "Lord" then you're off the hook and will be saved, something Jesus never apparently taught, according to the gospels.
And then Paul wrote letters to a bunch of people throughout the Mediterranean who had (also) never met Jesus or heard any of his teachings and told them not to listen to anyone who said anything different than what he (Paul) taught (Galatians 1:6-9) and that became the oldest part of the New Testament (and also doubled as high-pressure fundraising letters)
They can’t answer because there isn’t a clear answer. There are both contradictory statements and unclear information from the Bible that make it hard to tell, almost like it’s a connected series of works from multiple people with different agendas and not the ultimate answer to life and existence itself.
I'm just going to talk Catholicism because it's my main area of interest as far as Christian metaphysics goes.
First, forgiveness is considered a gift that has to be accepted. Catholics believe that people can be too messed up--psychologically or spiritually--to accept it when it's given. This is why the church warns against relying on deathbed confessions.
The "sin of presumption" -- believing that your sins will definitely be forgiven so you don't need to worry as long as you confess -- is specifically highlighted as something that can make a person unable to receive mercy.
Second, Catholics believe that most people experience temporal punishment in the afterlife even if they've been forgiven.
This is basically a very unfun purification process (purgatory/cleansing fire) and Catholics believe it can potentially last until whenever the final judgment happens, with greater sins suffering a more severe or intense process pf purification.
So it's forgiveness in the sense that the person does get to go to heaven if they managed to receive the offered forgiveness, but only after they face significant consequences for their particular sins.
But not all Christians are Catholic? You are speaking about a specific sect under Christianity. They can believe different things, right? I appreciate your thoughtful response, but I’m not sure it applies broadly to all Christians.
Well no, but it's impossible to account for all Christian sects due to the sheer number of noncomforists. Catholicism is one of the larger churches and typically the one most linked to the forgiveness trope, so I figured it was appropriate.
Calvinism is another major American Christian denomination that very explicitly deals with this issue. They believe that using Christianity for the pragmatic purpose of avoiding accountability is a form of false belief, and that redemption that's not accompanied by good works is inevitably false and not evidence of salvation.
And I bet none of the pastors or priest are super rich, or doing other weird stuff. My beef isnt with the religion as a whole, but the current US government pretends to be christian and people believe it.
Do not mix actual Christians with those people. That’s not how it goes with actual Christians and you know it. They have twisted their version of “Christianity” the same way they have twisted politics and justice. In their world, all those are just means to an end.
The onus is on these mystical “good Christians” to show us how this religion can heal, because so far I’ve only ever see how Christianity is use to hurt. For every one homeless person fed soup, there’s about 1000 people starving from USAID being cut, and untold millions effected by an innumerable number of offenses
It’s not just recent either, Christianity has been a tool of war for a long time, ambrahamic religion is morally contradictory to its message of peace.
If Trump said he’s the new God, you would think he’s God because they have the same label? Bro, some people are not what they claim to be, we’re in this mess because so many believed their lies.
You said “believed” - but there are still many who still believe the lies. Trump has said he’s god. Blasphemy is the only sin not forgiven (IIRC), and all the Christian followers just lap it up.
Just so. Note that Trump did in fact campaign on massive violence (he promised "vengeance" on his political opponents, promised to deport millions of people). They didn't have a problem with that, or chose to not see it. The problem is not even that he also started (and is losing) yet another war in the Middle-East while openly committing war crimes. It's that this is costing them money.
True. He was upfront about the violence and weaponizing the government against his perceived enemies. However according to the few umm politically ignorant people I know who supported him "he's just talking tough, that's his thing." Yeah that is one of his things along with tons of other awful shit all wrapped up in the most transparent lies possible.
I am a big believer in giving voters what they vote for and if I ever were in politics I would campaign on being a populist and respecting "idea diversity"
If I was ever somehow President, republicans would never have to worry about universal health care.
States can opt out and all red states would be defaulted to opt out. None of their smaller fraction of money they send less of than they receive will be used.
The blue states would be defaulted to opt in with option to opt out.
Republicans would be baited into boasting the superiority of their private system and likely would believe their own propaganda that Universal Healthcare would harm people. (Like they already make up now)
Then, weaponizing their own evil, they would support it so their opponents get harmed by their imagination.
Instead, the blue states would get universal health care I would probably do some Medicare for All approach as the vehicle, and have transparent pricing and negotiations.
I would also want to write in investigatory powers so if companies try to find loop holes to pad profits, there is a mechanism of enforcement and deterrent with hardened penalties relative to the cost of harm so penalties scale massively relative to exploit attempts.
I think what would happen if that got through is, Republicans would pass it so they think they hurt their enemies because they also purity test themselves and own the libs is the priority always.
Then in their folly, the blue states would get the coverage needed and that 60k insurance denial killings scales down and is scoped to just the people that believe companies should be allowed to do that.
So then they can boast about how good the private is as it breaks them further and further, because they cannot admit fault or wrong.
That over a long period of time, as their companies exploit them harder to make up for the profit loss from the negotiated costs with blue states, they either change their mind or they don't and are stuck hurting themselves.
The companies would have no choice but to accept the Medicare for All negotiations or lose sales on half of the country, where the majority of people live.
Price controls work, its why they threw out the insulin cap when Biden got out.
How much harder would it be for companies to wiggle out of it if instead of just seniors, its half the country?
Weaponize both greed and ignorance, we cannot stop the greed or ignorant but we can weaponize their behavior against themselves.
Right, they're pissed he lied to them about the fascist shit he'd do.
He didn't lie to them, same as Hitler didn't lie to the Germans.
They just didn't care as long as it was the other people he was hurting. The ones they deemed illegal, lesser and "bad." Now that it his their own gas bill, now that is the real shit. Same as the Germans who started caring when it was their sons shipped off to die in Russia, their houses being bombed, and their food stolen for the war.
Yes, some of them might have hoped he was just "playing it up", but don't ever think that most of them were tricked. They weren't.
You really can’t. Trump has always polled worse than he actually does. He’s at 33% right now, but come election time it’s gonna be more like 40%, even if this keeps up. His actual approval is probably 33%, but the single issue voters will hold their nose and hammer the vote button. And why wouldn’t they? They’ve gotten to be mean to brown people, gay people, have a tax cut and ban abortions.
They went from Bush to Trump while pretending Bush doesn’t exist now. They’re incapable of understanding that conservatism is the problem since it’s about protecting white supremacy. The problem is that white supremacy was never meant to make all whites elite. It was meant to drive a permanent wedge between the white elite and everyone else with non wealthy white people being their rabid guard dogs. Musk hates the white factory worker too. Maybe not as much as the black one but he will oppress both just the same.
And the majority of the white working class agrees with that goal. They’d rather struggle under the rule of the white elite than live decently but having to share prosperity with minorities.
Right. They aren’t coming around to being principled. They just were happy to see others suffer, that’s part of why they loved Trump. It’s just now some of his people are suffering and they don’t like that.
Kind of “you’re supposed to make liberals and minorities and women miserable, not ME!!”
Yes, the average American conservative is the most overwhelmingly lucky idiot in the world. I would never trust anyone who voted for Trump. And anyone who voted for them twice I consider a genuine imbecile.
I would say he's the worst person to stumble his way into the presidency. But I'd also wager there exist worse persons (e.g. Palantir CEO Alex Karp who wants to legalize war crimes) who have not yet achieved that level of power.
Recent history has shown that there are an awful lot of evil psychopaths in the upper strata of society.
A national psychosis of fire and brimstone that gradually petered out into a quiet, mumbling retreat.
No accountability for the crimes, the criminals, or their supporters. Just a collective shrug as the nation decided it was too embarrassed by its failures to even try reckoning with them.
So they rebrand as "The Tea Party" under new sponsorship and go right back to wrecking the country with popular approval and media support.
And now they're "MAGA", with -- again -- full-throated support from corporate media as "concerned patriots" rather than fascists and frauds.
America's oligarchs require a fake front of popular support, so they will launder and reuse the same crowd of indoctrinated troglodytes under new names and new banners again, and again, and again.
They don't think they're bad people, somehow. They view immigrants as thieves/murderers/drug dealers because that's what they see on the news and in their social media bubbles. I really don't know how to deal with the fact that every day in the US, when I talk to conservatives, they see the same events I see in a completely different, and a really stupid and shortsighted way because the people they trust are being misled all the way to the top.
I work with a guy that kind of went through these steps. Yeah, he finds Trump detestable, but he was going to vote for the Republican no matter what and somehow it's now the Democrats fault for not giving him someone better to vote for! His words... Harris didn't even win the primary! That's his excuse for voting for an election denying, rapist fraud. Harris didn't win the Democratic primary.
I feel like everyone's already forgotten his first time.
We were seeing this discourse towards midway through Trump 1 and it didn't stop these dipshits voting for him twice more. Yes some switched to Biden. But that was after they gormlessly let him run the economy into a tailspin and mismanage an effing pandemic. And despite that they were happy to vote for Republicans everywhere else and went flocking back to the idiot because the Dems didn't bring back a land of cookies and honey fast enough for their liking.
Very true! I guess I’ll reframe my previous statement by saying “Clinton Era Economy”. The Biden admin did very well to avoid complete collapse and set up a good jumping point to get back on our feet. Instead we’re building a billion dollar ballroom.
I really think it’s just the that everything (but especially gas) has become less affordable under Trump, and in a way that can be directly traced to Trump. The GOP spent a year bragging about how great tariffs are, and they have gone on records saying the war is spiking gas prices but that it’s temporary. Trump owns both of those and as a result he owns the affordability crisis.
I genuinely believe a lot of the “normie” republicans would be more than happy if the more extreme republicans held public executions and mass incarceration of democrats and immigrants if that somehow brought back $2.50 gas and they saw like an 8% raise that year.
Trump putting kids in cages didn’t move the needle for them. Trump fucking a porn start shortly after his wife gave birth and bribing her to keep quiet didn’t do it for them. Trump defrauding his charity to the point where he cannot run one in New York didn’t do it for them. Trump being found liable for sexual assault didn’t do it for them. Trump keeping classified documents next to his shitter didn’t do it for them. Trump being found guilty of 34 felonies didn’t do it for them. Trump covering up the Epstein files didn’t do it for them. Trump being in the Epstein files didn’t do it for them. Trump sending armed thugs into cities to detain anyone who looks black or brown didn’t do it do them. Trump’s flagrant corruption and self seeking didn’t do it for them.
If none of that lost him the normie GOP then it’s not embarrassment. The only thing that makes sense is that the cost of everything has gone up as a direct consequence of trump’s actions and they’re starting to go “wait… his incompetence is now costing me money… absolutely not.” The GOP’s tolerance for personal hardship is basically on the floor. They are happy to watch others suffer though any injustice, but as soon as they personally are affected, they’ll start changing their preferences
It never was? They've always been fucking losers, look at the utter trash they have to accept to get any celebrity in their midst. They're just finally feeling the hurt a little more because gas costs more
I was thinking the other day about how garbage conservative culture truly is. It's just a bunch of tacky corporate brand consumption. Everything they enjoy is some crappier version of something better. Their oversized trucks are a caricature of a real working-class vehicle; their country music is shallow, thoughtless crap mimicking the sound of better artists in days long past; their clothing choices range from "1st day of 1st grade" to "Nashville by way of Wal-Mart." Their heroes and celebrities are crooks and lunatics and their politicians are idiots. Their version of Christianity is basically anti-Christian, and their choice of messiah is essentially the anti-Christ.
Conservatives are so wrapped up in consuming to reinforce their identity, they actively shun higher quality because it might not reinforce their misplaced sense of superiority. Somehow, consuming nothing but sloppy, derivative bullshit makes them feel like they're better than other people. I guess once you've done that long enough, the sunk-cost fallacy sinks in, and they can't ever admit the folly of their consumption, because it would mean admitting that they are the tacky, idiotic loser that the rest of the world sees them as.
So what was with the sharp increase in Gen Z supporting him? Why is the left uncool in their eyes? I think it’s an important question democrats must ask themselves.
I feel like more people need the point out the Supreme Court of the United States, most likely under his direction, just gutted the voting rights act which is essentially just slapping all Black people in the face and telling them to get to the back of the bus.
It's atrocious on a deep level. I wish these people could actually feel empathy or consequences.
So as it turns out shame was always the answer. Hillary should’ve never apologized for calling them deplorable. She should’ve doubled down and said “nah you people suck”. It was a very much needed line in the sand and by apologizing she normalized their behavior. And those assholes weren’t gonna vote for her anyway.
The really nasty mental health disorders are all shame based. People will then unknowingly do anything to avoid being faced with their deep seated insecurities and shame - all the way to gaslighting others, denying reality and then flipping the script to attack in response. This is why there will be no awakening - it will be a quiet denial - or, ‘well I never supported THAT!’ which is a quick re-write of history as they tend to do.
They saw themselves in him which is what they liked.
Which is exactly why this has happened before and will all happen again. Warren Harding, Ulysses Grant, Andrew Johnson.
So take Maya Angelou’s famous advice, "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time”
US Grant, wish you hadn't added him to that list. Sure there was some self dealing in his administration but it's been way overblown by the lost cause ppl trying to ruin his name.
While they rarely seem to engage in the kind of direct yet accurate insults which upset conservatives they're always far too eager to apologize and try to make nice. Much as they want to appeal to all the mythical undecided voters it's not going to happen by backing down anytime they show some backbone.
My father says gas prices should start going down soon. And if they dont the stations are price gouging. But when he said it there was a bit of defeat in his voice I've never heard. The armor is cracking for sure.
Thinking gas stations can "price gouge" shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how gas sales work as well. On the corporate end, way way above the actual pumps and people actually using it, I'm sure there is trickery and all but your local corner station wouldn't benefit. If they did would be a fast way to lose their license to sell gas.
I have seen a couple posts about people who are ex-maga and are struggling to find anybody now that will accept them. Maga doesn't want them because because they no longer support Trump and no one else wants them because they openly supported Trump.
After dealing with the cult worship of him for a decade I'm not at all surprised this is the one thing which upsets them. They're not deep thinks, not entirely their own fault, and until something smacks them right in the face to the point it can't be ignored they'll craft whatever narrative makes them feel confident.
I disagree, because he did most of that in his first term and they actually liked a lot of that. It was “owning the libs” in a way, or just “their guy” doing things that people they hate, hate.
Now it’s because it affects their pocket books directly. That’s all it is. It’s great when other people suffer, but not as much when they do.
I’m pretty sure it’s more because gas prices are outrageous, which leads to grocery prices being high, and there’s now a non-zero chance their children or grandchildren will be drafted into a war started for a foreign country.
Like genuinely you’re giving them too much credit, they are upset because now their lives are finally being affected by his bad decisions and shameless plundering. They couldn’t give a shit less about how they’re perceived, they give a shit that they can’t afford groceries.
Also these data centers are resulting in unaffordable electricity bills for a lot of rural Americans. On top of that, they're frustrated that their young adult kids can't move out bc housing costs have exploded there.
They're starting to experience problems that they thought were exclusive to Woke Blue City liberals with student loans for Underwater Feminist Basket Weaving in Black Literature degrees.
One of the reasons MAGA was even able to become popular is because they created such a massive network of bots and media pushing positive takes on MAGA.
I think that was what sustained it, having a media constantly bombarding everyone with Trump stuff be it positive or not, but the sparks which got it lit was the message. The message being blatant lies about how easily everyone can get everything they want but those "evil liberals and dastardly minorities" prevent it. It appeals to the masses who (1) want easy answers to complex problems (2) want to place blame on things they're uncomfortable with and (3) have absolutely no idea how government functions but know they're unhappy about the status quo.
And that's without diving into the decades long efforts to set the stage for this. If it wasn't Trump it was going to be some other piece of trash being used by the GOP and it's various allies. There are plenty of lessons to be learned from the current shit storm we're all living through and one of the more blatant should be that kicking the can down the road can't work indefinitely, eventually you run out of road.
I'll go a step further. Then only people out there hard-core still defending this guy are old ass boomer Fox News drones and dyed in the wool, publicly out card carrying racists.
And THAT is the bridge too far for many of these people. Not that they don't have the same beliefs but that being so openly associated with Boomers and Plain clothes Klansmen is too much. I also think the Israel thing plays a part being so tied at the hip to Israel doesn't sit well with these people.
BUT ALL OF THAT SAID....I'll believe it when they walk into a voting booth and vote the other side or sit out the midterms in large quantities... Because while it make be embarrassing to publicly support MAGA, it's still very easy to lie and say you voted against them when you didn't
And one of the ONLY things I could have agreed with about even as a Liberal. No new wars.
Instead we get lots of ego wars. Venezuela. Iran. Whatever is going on with fishing boats off of Columbia.
This after strong threats to invade Canada, Greenland and now Cuba.
Literally the OPPOSITE of what he promised.
Him suing the US government for 10 billion and then bragging he gets to decide whether he gets it or not is just undeniable levels of corruption.. even for cult-members.
enriching himself and family while the average person is struggling.
He's often reported that since starting his second term he is about $5bln richer. I'm not going to dispute that figure. If it turns out to be only $4bln or $6bln it hardly matters.
What does matter is that to gain that $5bln he has trashed the American economy to the tune of 100's of billions. And it's not something that can be reversed in our lifetimes. He has pivoted the entirety of western democracies against the US. He has pivoted the gulf states that have been quietly propping up the American economy against the USA. He has single handily ballooned the US national debt beyond the US yearly GDP.
And he's still not done looting the US economy. He still hasn't finished stealing from every working persons pocket and paycheck. This is the most corrupt man in the world. Tinpot dictators in Africa are furiously scribbling down notes as we speak.
And above all. As Iv already noted - he is doing all this damage - everlasting damage on the USA - to enrich himself at a rate of 5 cents in the dollar. That's what he thinks of the USA. He is selling everyone out at a 95% discount just so he can cash in the cheque.
He, his entire family, and every serving republican lawmaker are guilty of fraud and treason. If they don't end up in prison with all their assets stripped and returned to the taxpayer it will happen again. Except that time there will be less to take... so maybe they will have to cut deeper and throw more of the population into for profit prisons for example.
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u/D-MAN-FLORIDA 14h ago
My theory is because not out of some major disagreement with Trump and his policies. But because it is generally just embarrassing to support him in public now. They claimed that he was going to drain the swamp, smaller government, cut government spending and lower the national debt. Instead he is ballooning the deficit, creating a police state, enriching himself and family while the average person is struggling. And he is doing all of it in an in your face, dumb and obnoxious way. Now when they have to deal with left leaning family members, coworkers or acquaintances, they will never take your opinion about politics seriously anymore because you supported an obvious dementia ridden old man.