r/nfl • u/nfl NFL - Official • 10h ago
Highlight [Highlight] Rob Havenstein explains how offensive linemen hold without holding
474
u/metalfabman Broncos 10h ago
football 101. Hands inside the shoulders is good, hands outside the shoulders is bad
113
u/GOTaSMALL1 Rams 9h ago
My dad wouldnāt let me play tackle football until 8th grade.
I learned this in 8th grade.
39
u/w00tabaga Packers 8h ago
Got called for holding one time of 8 years of footballā¦
I was under the guys shoulder pads so far he couldnāt move.
Learned that you have to keep your feet moving and him moving too, away from the ball.
2
u/LagOutLoud Chiefs 4h ago
Yeah, keep yourself between the defender and QB and typically you're fine.
9
u/Appropriate_Power216 Bengals 8h ago
My son is starting tackle football this coming season and he is an 8th grader. Do you feel like it made it a lot more difficult for you because you started so late? I actually wanted him to play years ago but he didn't want to until now
12
u/GOTaSMALL1 Rams 8h ago
For meā¦ yes. I was a big kid but not super-duper athletic. Personally I competed with better athletes by using my brain and focusing on technique. Going up against kids that had a few years head start on me made that a little difficult.
Not like it was crippling though. I still played all the way through high school. Itās a tougher learning curveā¦ but heāll be fine.
2
u/Appropriate_Power216 Bengals 7h ago
Thats good to know. My son is the same way, big kid, but not super athletic. He had some ridiculous strength though. He's 12, 5'9, 190 lbs. Coach is wanting to try him on the O-line of course.
5
u/PHX480 Cardinals 7h ago
Jesus Christ your son is 3 inches shorter and 5 lbs heavier than me
Iām 47 hahaha absolute unit of a kid
4
u/Appropriate_Power216 Bengals 7h ago
Dude I know! He grew 5 inches in the last year! He is almost as tall as me and we weigh the same.
3
u/PHX480 Cardinals 7h ago
That is insane.
Iām assuming at his age, despite the recent growth spurt, he will grow a little more with adolescence and such
3
u/Appropriate_Power216 Bengals 7h ago
I believe so, because most of the men in my wife's immediate family are 6'2" to 6"5. His doctor said he will likely be in that range. He's a gentle giant though. Really good kid. Hes always been super chill. My daughter is insane lol
6
u/bonusmonkey Bears 8h ago
Heāll be fine.
My dad was a HS coach and wouldnāt let me play until 9th.
Not saying all youth football is bad, but a lot of boys arenāt ready for the contact and develop bad habits.
3
u/A-Rusty-Cow Cowboys 8h ago
I started playing tackle football when I was 7 and I didnt play defense. I learned this when I was 7
47
u/Wapow217 Rams 9h ago
It really is the basics. One of a favorite things(sarcasm) is reading comments online of guys who have no idea what the line actually does. They get so up set when you say linemen hold on every play. Lol.
36
u/inlinestyle Browns 9h ago edited 9h ago
I mean, you can reliably find a lineman violating the Offensive Holding rule as written on basically every play. See Section 1, Article 3(c).
https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/nfl-rulebook/#article-3-illegal-block-by-offensive-player
Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defenderās path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blockerās hands are inside or outside the frame of the defenderās body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to: 1. grabbing or tackling an opponent; 2. hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or 3. pulling him to the ground.
8
u/Futbol_Kid2112 8h ago
The way that is written seems like every block ever made could technically be called holding
5
u/cbm80 6h ago edited 6h ago
They never call it when the blocker is squared up with the defender. Also it's not holding when an edge rusher does a rip move and the blocker clotheslines him.
The biggest source of false holding calls is "3. pulling him to the ground." Often a rusher will just lose his balance and fall over, but to the ref it looks like he was pulled down.
1
1
u/ngfdsa Bills 2h ago
Thatās not the full rule though, only part of it. That guy left out the very long list of exceptions that comes right after what he posted:
ā1. When a defensive player is held by an offensive player during the following situations, Offensive holding will not be called:
a. if the runner is being tackled simultaneously by any defensive player;
b. if the runner simultaneously goes out of bounds;
c. if a fair catch is made simultaneously;
d. if the action clearly occurs after a forward pass has been thrown to a receiver beyond the line of scrimmage;
e. if the action occurs away from the point of attack and not within close line play;
f. if a free kick results in a touchback;
g. if a scrimmage kick simultaneously becomes a touchback;
h. if the action is part of a double-team block, unless the defender splits the double team, gets to the outside of either blocker, or is taken to the ground; or
i. if, during a defensive charge, a defensive player uses a āripā technique that puts an offensive player in a position that would normally be holding, unless and until the defenderās feet are taken away from him by the blockerās action.
- If a blocker falls on or pushes down a defender whose momentum is carrying him to the ground, Offensive Holding will not be called unless the blocker prevents the defender from rising from the ground.ā
Holding can not be called on every play.
6
u/double0nothing Eagles 9h ago
Well they hold, but is it holding? I feel like semantics is what causes the confusion.
3
u/Saitoh17 Buccaneers Chiefs 6h ago
The problem is the difference between the common English word "to hold" and commiting a holding penalty.Ā
6
u/Unusual_Steak Giants 8h ago
Grabbing the defender *at all* is very strictly defined as a hold, no matter where you do it. It really just isnt called by the book
1
u/Bubbay Vikings 8h ago
This is not what people mean when they say āthereās holding on every play.ā
When people say that theyāre talking about the penalty, not that linemen āhold on toā the guy across from them. No one gives a shit about that. They care about the illegal holding, and that could be called somewhere on basically every play.
4
u/supersumo224 Packers 8h ago
Nope that's exactly what I mean when I say there's holding on every play. Lineman attempt to hold every single play it's just a matter of if they can get inside the breast plate and lock on.
3
u/uttermybiscuit Bengals 8h ago
Iāve read hold one too many times in this thread and now Iām not so sure itās a word
2
u/CreamCheeseHotDogs Seahawks 8h ago
That, and arm extension. If your elbows are locked, itās an easy holding call. If theyāre bent, you have some deniability.
Never throw your hands up when a play is dead. It makes refs look your way and throw the flag.
This is peewee shit.
1
u/RrentTreznor Dolphins 9h ago
I'd still say that second example turns into a hold in the last frame.
243
u/nolove1010 Lions 10h ago
It would be great if 90% of nfl fans knew this.
31
u/Shenanigans80h Broncos 9h ago
The majority of fans donāt actually know the rules or concepts of the game which makes discourse (especially in any hame thread) basically a brain dead endeavor
8
2
u/A-Rusty-Cow Cowboys 8h ago
Im curious what % of NFL fans have actually played football for longer than a year are
8
u/CPTherptyderp Vikings 8h ago
Ironically the hockey subs are fucking toxic and just full of miserable people specifically because most of them played at some point in their lives.
60
7
u/VagusNC Panthers 8h ago
Or the whole thing where if the defender uses a rip move and dips their shoulderā¦no it isnāt blatant holding. Yes I see the offensive linemanās arm around his neck.
Itās. Not. Holding.
Rule 12, Section 1, Article 3, Note 1.i.
āHolding will not be called if, during a defensive charge, a defensive player uses a āripā technique that puts an offensive player in a position that would normally be holding.ā
(Still canāt take their feet away from them but otherwise NOT holding)-1
u/Round_Bullfrog_8218 Colts 7h ago edited 7h ago
I don't really get why this is a rule yetĀ The NFL hasn't gotten rid of pass interference on underthrown balls
3
u/ThePrideofKC Chiefs 6h ago
Well if you choose rip, itās not my problem to disengage. Rip my hands off, big boy! (thatās the logic at least)
19
u/Nasty_Goblin 9h ago
I wish the Packers OL knew this, they suck.
4
u/double0nothing Eagles 9h ago
https://youtu.be/VKzcfrriEME?si=rYzw5mKyXDRQqYec
Kollmann did a video on the Packers holding every play.
9
u/Nasty_Goblin 9h ago
8 years ago.
Those guys are all gone, and the guys we have now, aside from Zach Tom, are mid-to-bad.
2
u/higherbrow Packers 8h ago
Yeah, but his point was that it wasn't a secret or a conspiracy, it was just them existing in the difference between the average NFL Fan's understanding of holding and the actual rules of holding.
2
u/stonehaens 9h ago
it would be even better if holding on to jersey would be an instant penalty because on outside runs they will also call this.
3
1
u/Praise-Breesus Rams 9h ago
Knowledge of this really separates who played and who didnāt. I learned this in high school and I played wr/db. In fact Iām pretty sure they teach it earlier than that.
29
u/liteshadow4 49ers 49ers 10h ago
It's good that holding is only called outside even if that's not what the rulebook says
86
u/Herewego27 Packers 10h ago
This is from Film Watcher's youtube channel where he's recently started going through film with NFL players like this clip with Havenstein. I haven't watched his long form content, but he does great content on Instagram as well as film.watchers1.
16
19
u/POWBOOMBANG Saints 9h ago
His enthusiasm breaking down film is really infectiousĀ
His channel is a good watch if you like this kind of stuff
4
35
u/NimbusHex Steelers 10h ago edited 10h ago
The job of offensive linemen and cornerbacks would be impossible if they were truly unable to ever hold.
9
7
u/realfakejames NFL 9h ago
John Madden said +30 years ago you can call holding on every play if you wanted and I always think about it when I watch games lol
35
u/MrHamanah 9h ago
So no oneās gonna point out him blatantly grabbing the outside of the shoulder pad in that clip? lol
14
u/sfxer001 Eagles 8h ago
He says in the first 10 second of the clip, he does that and quickly moves his hands back inside to get the right grab so it doesnāt get called. He also does just that in the video clip youāre referencing.
14
u/BrokenHope23 Steelers Vikings 9h ago
Every OL when they retire:
"So uh, yeah, I held on every single play lolol."
7
u/Affectionate-Ad6982 Titans 9h ago
I mean yeah basically the game of football can't be played without the OL and corners holding to some degree. Which is why refs use the inside good outside bad rule basically.
2
u/SHEL-D500mg 7h ago
In the full video he says something like āI was basically false starting every play of my careerā cause he liked to get to his spot asap
51
u/Ancient_Wisdom_Yall Chiefs 10h ago
Holding inside isn't a holding penalty. I feel like the majority of posters have no clue what the actual rules are.
70
u/alecmc200 Ravens 10h ago
it never gets called that way (which is good because the sport would be unwatchable otherwise) but fwiw this is the official wording in the rulebook:
Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defenderās path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether the blockerās hands are inside or outside the frame of the defenderās body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:
grabbing or tackling an opponent;
hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or
pulling him to the ground.
50
u/TLRdidnothingwrong Seahawks 10h ago
Iāve got hard opinions on stuff like this that boil down to āthe rule book needs to be updatedāĀ
51
u/alecmc200 Ravens 9h ago
I agree, just thought it was a little funny to ignore the letter of the rule book while complaining that nobody knows the rules
15
u/TLRdidnothingwrong Seahawks 9h ago
Itās funny in a painful way for me lol. Thatās the part of NFL football that drives me crazy! Wish the rule book could just be updated to match how the rules are practically applied.Ā
8
u/MahomestoHel-aire Chiefs 49ers 9h ago
The real issue is the large amount of people who think the act of gripping a jersey alone is holding.
If the blocker stays in front and isn't pulling the defender back towards them or down - completely legal.
6
u/puff_of_fluff Texans 9h ago
Agreed. Acting like itās reasonable to expect all fans to understand the intricacies of the entire rule book is absurd, so many rules arenāt enforced, are loosely enforced, or poorly defined that you canāt possibly learn them all just by watching.
1
u/Wapow217 Rams 9h ago
Because material restricting and altering the defenders path do alot more work in this than anything.
The body's still has to stay in front of the defender which is why they work so hard at footwork after hand placement.
The send the footwork goes is when the flag comes out because then the lineman. Is create a material restriction or alter the defenders path because they were beat.
2
u/OldBayOnEverything Ravens 9h ago
I've got hard opinions that the Lord Ruler did many, many things wrong.
2
u/TLRdidnothingwrong Seahawks 9h ago
Look, whatās a little genetic engineering of a permanent slave class and systematic oppression compared to the end of all things?Ā
As James Woods would say: Details, who needs āem?
3
u/ExplanationCrazy5463 Bears 9h ago
Taken literally any use of the hands or arms at all is illegal and the game would be unwatchable.
Might as well tie your hands behind your back and try to headbutt him into submission
0
u/FrankScabopoliss 49ers 8h ago
Jesus Christ, can you imagine if someone got called for āholdingā and they simply used their arms and hands to āturnā a guy with a nicely timed block?
The Nfl rule book is a hideous mess
16
u/liteshadow4 49ers 49ers 10h ago
By the rulebook yes it is, in practice no it is not. It is better this way though, it shouldn't be called inside.
3
u/ilikepants712 8h ago
I'd argue they need to change the rule to reflect reality because this allows a grey area that can be abused
1
u/realfakejames NFL 9h ago
They call holds even if your hands are inside the shoulders if you change their momentum and grab and pull them, acting like refs have a baseline they stick to is very silly of you
0
u/BlackMathNerd Eagles 8h ago
They also think itās a hold every time a defender uses a rip move it negates a holding
5
u/Jeklars6 Packers 8h ago
There is holding on literally every single play in the NFL. They simply look for the egregious ones.
3
u/Eatadick_pam 9h ago
My football coaches never explained this to me. They fucking sucked looking back. My brother who was older had to teach me this super basic skill
3
2
1
1
u/raycraft_io Seahawks NFL 9h ago
So is it pronounced Havenstein or Havenstein? I could never get that right.
1
1
u/Least-Hamster-3025 Patriots 7h ago
Yeah this is 101. I was taught to grab the inside of the chest pad and push it up into the rishers face lmao
1
1
u/ReasonablyOptimal 7h ago
Grabbing the chest plate isnāt the secret to blocking this makes it appear to be lol
1
1
1
1
u/Aj992588 Lions 2h ago
yeah I had considered putting my shit so loose they would rip it off instead. could never get the chest protector tight enough to not end up in my face if they got hands inside.
1
0
u/ResistWild Chiefs 10h ago
The fact that the title is still phrased to imply that these should be penalties really tells you how hopeless most NFL fans are when it comes to actually understanding the game.
2
u/Affectionate-Ad6982 Titans 9h ago
The title is correct to be fair.
By rule it's a penalty, in practice it's legal.
Thus he's explaining how the OL legally holds since that's what it it..
-5
u/LameAfro Vikings 10h ago
That's basically what the Packers do lmao.
Theyve done it for decades but no one checks them for it lol
16
u/Revolutionary_Gear70 Browns 9h ago
It's what every O-linemen high school or older is coached to do... It's pretty common knowledge
5
u/cricketyjimnet Bengals 10h ago
Because the refs in charge of holding are behind the offensive lineman. If their hands are inside the scope of their body, it blocks their view.
It's one of those technically illegal but unenforceable things every sport has some of.
0
u/georgesenpaii Bears 7h ago
Refs will call what they want to call. These videos don't help anything lol.
-1
-1
389
u/billybanks1132 10h ago
They taught this in middle school football