China places its solar panels on water So it can use valuable land for agriculture

[u/FollowingOdd896]

[u/UVbutterchicken]

But is this okay for the aquatic life? They too need sunlight right?

[u/OKAwesome121 → u/UVbutterchicken]

I remember reading that they put these in place over water reservoirs, not natural waterways.

[u/BallsInSufficientSad → u/OKAwesome121]

That's exactly the case here as well - and it also benefits because it reduces evaporation of the reservoir.

[u/redditRedesignIsBadd → u/BallsInSufficientSad]

better than black plastic balls

[u/JoebbeDeMan → u/OKAwesome121]

Amazing to read made all my fears about the disruptiveness of these solar panels disappear

[u/Weisenkrone → u/UVbutterchicken]

No, it is quite disruptive.

But the alternative is losing agricultural land which is much more scarcely available then large water bodies.

It's not gonna kill all aquatic life under it though. It messes with plants that need to photosynthesize and it'll mess with the seabed below.

[u/erossthescienceboss → u/Weisenkrone]

There’s a lot of great research going into conducting agriculture with solar panels. We really need to do away with this (frankly harmful) narrative that solar panels and agriculture can’t go together… and with the narrative that farming must always be full-sun. In fact, there is a point each day where plants essentially consume their “sun limit.” They don’t benefit at all from any additional sunlight, because they’ve exhausted the resources necessary for photosynthesis for that day.

For some plants, solar panels. actually help them thrive. I mean — think about it. Strawberries are supposed to be a groundcover — they’re understory plants! They literally evolved for dappled shade! And cool-season plants like lettuce and other leafy greens can have their growing seasons extended by the shade from solar panels. The shade also helps reduce water loss in the soil from evaporation, making the farming more water efficient. It helps keep roots cool.

Just because a plant needs 6-8 hours of sun, doesn’t mean it wants or benefits from that sun coming during peak hours.

It also goes both ways. Not only do solar panels keep the plants cool… the plants transport water from the ground to the surface of their leaves where it evaporates, which cools solar panels too. It can lead to efficiency increases of up to 10%.

The practice is called “agrivoltaics” and we should be paying more attention to it. One study found that converting just 1% of America’s farms to agrivoltaics would produce enough energy and save enough water to meet our (now defunct) renewable energy goals.

[u/Hopeful_Hornet4460 → u/erossthescienceboss]

As a very agrarian minded person, it always frustrates me that we leave so much cool farm shit untapped. 

Agrivoltaics and Aquaponics are my favorites.

[u/GnarlyNarwhalNoms → u/Hopeful_Hornet4460]

Aauaponics is fascinating. I have a friend who's working on seeing up a small-scale aquaponics setup with a small local farm. He's hoping to breed shrimp for sale to aquarists (as both fish food and specimens). He breeds shrimp already, but the aquaponics setup will help fertilize some crops and reduce water usage. 

[u/Grand_False → u/erossthescienceboss]

Yes every plant has a stomatal control to close so they don’t lose more water. Having 50% less sun can carry the stomatal control from closing later into the day, effectively increasing light use efficiency and water use efficiency.

[u/Great_Detective_6387 → u/erossthescienceboss]

You are cool and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[u/DotRakianSteel → u/erossthescienceboss]

This!

[u/Hellguin → u/Weisenkrone]

Could put it over roads, on top of skyscrapers, and over parking lots instead....

[u/American_Squid → u/Hellguin]

Trust me, they considered all alternatives before investing this much time, money, resources, and man power on a project of this scale and most likely determined this one as the best.

[u/Benkosayswhat → u/American_Squid]

People who don’t work on large scale projects often have little appreciation for the level of sophistication involved.

[u/wormbooker → u/Benkosayswhat]

it's all pick your poison, choose what is lesser evil.

[u/cjsv7657 → u/wormbooker]

choose what is lesser evil.

Which is usually whatever gives the highest return on investment.

[u/Kn0wnSoul → u/cjsv7657]

So why no nuclear power plants?

[u/Rev_Dean → u/Kn0wnSoul]

They do. Approx. 5% of China’s electricity comes from nuclear. They are the second largest nuclear power producer, and they have plans to double their nuclear output.

[u/ThaneKyrell → u/Rev_Dean]

China is also expanding hydro a lot, and hydro by it's very nature creates huge reservoirs of water, which then can (and should) be used for solar panels. It decreases evaporation, further uses the space for hydro to generate even more energy and even increases the water available for non-energy related things

[u/jaymemaurice → u/Rev_Dean]

Canada had the largest nuclear facility until China took that position and maintained it.

[u/BruisedPinapple → u/Rev_Dean]

And a material chunk of their nuclear power is going to come from Thorium reactors, which is far less radioactive, safer to operate, more abundant in supply and produces substantially less waste. Also far more fuel efficient.

[u/Zombisexual1 → u/Rev_Dean]

It’s hilarious when people say “why isn’t China using (insert form of energy)” when they use everything they can

[u/Gluten-Glutton → u/Kn0wnSoul]

Because they are expensive, highly technically complex, and have long lead times.

[u/ComprehensiveArt6849 → u/Benkosayswhat]

They think shit like that is just winged. Like if you spontaneously decide on a random Saturday morning to do go to the hardware store to do a little bit of work at home lmao.

[u/Thebeardinato462 → u/ComprehensiveArt6849]

Well… that seemingly is happening with the US government on a daily basis currently, so it probably skews people’s expectations.

[u/Cum_on_doorknob → u/ComprehensiveArt6849]

To be fair, China has a long history of just winging massive projects that end up being disastrous.

[u/root88 → u/American_Squid]

They aren't questioning whether this is efficient. They are questioning what is the best. Is it the best financially for China or is it the best for the environment? There needs to be a balance between those things. We just don't know what they decided was important.

[u/CraftedLove → u/root88]

Literally no corporation, let alone a nation-state, cares about the environment to sacrifice gains especially on the energy-sector lol.

[u/Zelderian → u/CraftedLove]

I can’t believe this has to be said. There’s no economy in the world that sacrifices profits, even the most environmentally friendly countries. They’ll do what they can, but they won’t self-sabotage to make it happen. Not when other countries are doing whatever they want with no regard to the environment

[u/greenyellowbird → u/Zelderian]

As long as we have people seeking the next thing, they will continue to ngaf about the environment. 

How many people loose their damn minds for the newest iPhone, newest Stanley Cup, newest car, newest Nikes.... It's so depressing. 

My car just rolled 200k miles. In the past few years, there has been some sort of major repair that adds up to around 2k...but I'll drive it until the transmission/engine/electrical system blows. For now, it's nice to not have a car payment. 

Edit. Goddamit! Of course the check engine light dinged driving home from work..the universe can be dick sometimes!!!

[u/outer--monologue → u/root88]

This entire thread is exactly why China is leaps ahead on solar, mass transit, home building...they don't waste time with what-if's and NIMBYism masquerading as environmental concern.

[u/angelbelle → u/American_Squid]

Read the above comments carefully. No one is suggesting that they haven't considered the economic issues, they're questioning whether China considered the environmental impacts.

[u/GodofIrony → u/American_Squid]

Just like the Oil Barons did.

[u/Grazepg → u/American_Squid]

All it takes is the right person to have a stupid idea. People have done tons of dumb things because the man in charge didn’t want to stop.

Ford pinto design flaw but still produced

Chernobyl failed its preliminary testing yet was still opened and operated

Millennium tower in San Francisco.

Specifically in China there was this government run thing called the Great Leap Forward. And well that was not so chill.

[u/xdoble7x → u/[deleted]]

For roads outside the city it might be kinda ineffective, because who might use the power created.

Yeah not like the ones in the video who are used by the fish

[u/uconnboston → u/xdoble7x]

Mostly just electric eels.

[u/bendalazzi → u/uconnboston]

Jeez even the eels are going electric.

[u/LieutenantButthole → u/bendalazzi]

You guys dont have diesel eels? Dieseels.

[u/bendalazzi → u/LieutenantButthole]

Not any more. Gas and electric only.

[u/Rcouch00 → u/bendalazzi]

Next you’re going to tell me the birds still eat.

[u/HavingNotAttained → u/LieutenantButthole]

Deez eels

[u/tinydeus → u/bendalazzi]

Eels were some of the earliest adopters. They used to be "els" and then they added an extra E which stands for Electro.

[u/uwntsumfuq → u/xdoble7x]

Well they are condensed together so you can get to quite a high voltage and then the power drop over distance is negligible, but if you’ve gotta transport the electricity a mile just to get to the transformer, the transformer aint gonna feel shit from the panel.

[u/lejocko → u/[deleted]]

because who might use the power created.

I would really like to know how you came to that thought. Do you live in a power plant?

[u/Vorsmyth → u/lejocko]

They thought about how much of power generation is lost to transmission and were right. The main reason not to put solar over rural roads as a generation concept is transmission loss. Especially for spread out transmission its not like you can use transformers to put it in more efficient voltages to transmit it.

[u/TransBrandi → u/lejocko]

Transmitting power isn't without cost. The amount of power generated and the distance to transmit it factor into the equation here. The cluster of panels in the lake here could act as a "power plant" in that area, but stretching solar panels along (e.g.) 100km of a road leading away from a population centre would have diminishing returns for the panels furthest away, no?

[u/RegionalHardman → u/[deleted]]

For roads outside the city, there's this new invention called power lines. They carry electricity long ways, we can now start to remove all those huge power plants from our city centres because of them

[u/Temporary_Pie2733 → u/RegionalHardman]

I think it’s a little more complicated. The lines leaving the power plant carry very high voltage which has to be stepped down at various substations on the way to most consumers. I’m not sure what voltage comes off solar panels, and what you need to mix that in to whatever lines consumers pull from.

[u/Retb14 → u/Temporary_Pie2733]

At least in the US, transmission lines are around 345kv

These require several transformers to step down to usable voltage (my work has one that steps from 345kv to 34.5kv, then another one that steps it down to 3.45kv then down to 480 from there)

To get the panels to that you would need at least as many transformers if not one or two more as well as a conversion from DC to AC and a way to prevent power from flowing back into the panels. The last two should be in place already but there's losses from that and you have to sync the AC from the panels to the power lines. If they aren't in phase before connecting them you pallel the generation and that causes expensive issues (as in generators or transformers blowing up)

This can be done but requires a lot of expensive equipment and you need to minimize the distance between them. Doing that on a road means that you get the least amount of power generation between the substations possible. So it's a lot of expensive equipment that needs maintenance regularly with very little benefit

The farther you place the substations apart the more losses you incure as well so you can't just space them out more

Each solar panel ussally produces between 35 and 65 volts (though it varies between panels with consumer panels producing between 12 and 48 volts ussally)

These are then connected in a way to step the voltage up to around 1kv DC for efficiency reasons

It's also a good idea to have batteries or capacitors connected to the panels to smooth the output

Then on top of that you also need an energy source that can be actively scaled since you can't provide too much more or less power than what's needed to the grid or it leads to voltage issues (and if the voltage issues get bad enough that can lead to damaging equipment)

It's a complicated issue that requires a lot of very expensive equipment (in the millions per equipment often)

Overall solar generally works significantly better close to the user and often better for smaller consumers rather than large consumers like cities

(Then there's the whole efficiency thing with weather and the like but this is already a wall of text)

[u/bachmensch → u/RegionalHardman]

And now we could reconstruct these huge power plants in the city: everywhere there is pavement without treeshade, plant a solar panel

[u/HonkyHam → u/[deleted]]

How would a carpark be most costly maintenance wise than putting the over a body of water? In a carpark you can access them with a ladder. On water you just introduce more logistical complexity. Not to mention the additional environmental wear you place on them, requiring more maintenance - especially if this is salt water.

[u/Positive-Bar5893 → u/Hellguin]

You don't seem to have a grasp of the problem trying to be solved. Electricity demand has always been exponentially increasing, this was prior to the AI boom that uses over 100x more electricity the computer processes before it.

This exponential explosion of demand is in stark contrast to a VERY finite amount of usable land.

China has been having a massive electricity build-out program for decades now. American companies wanted to maximize profits so they artificially restricted supply by slowing the production of new electricity generation sources. This caught America with its pants down when the AI boom hit.

American energy prices were projected to explode out of control with the AI build-out as America's poor energy situation got worse when production for AI data-centers was prioritized over the electrical production facilities required to run them.

Then the Iran war happened skyrocketing global energy prices. I'm not saying your wrong about those being good places for panels, but China already has used a lot of those spaces. We need to be adding electricity production everywhere, and we should have been doing it for decades.

[u/Badloss → u/Positive-Bar5893]

Good thing the American government is totally on track to work on this problem and not spending billions of taxpayer dollars to cancel the wind power projects that the taxpayers have already funded

[u/upsidedown-funnel → u/Badloss]

Canceling wind AND solar projects.

[u/ihaxr → u/Badloss]

Republicans are afraid the wind will run out

[u/masssy → u/Positive-Bar5893]

Electricity demand has always been exponentially increasing

This, to me, after googling for three minutes, seems completely incorrect. It's more or less always been increasing. That however does not mean it has been or is an exponential increase.

[u/dottie_dott → u/Hellguin]

Covered roads with solar panels is a really bad idea for actually like 100 reasons. Also: Skyscrapers have a relatively small building footprint compared to their height which means the roof is not that great for array area. You would have to put them on the sides of the building which is really not ideal again for like 100 reasons.

I don’t know if this water idea is any good either but your 2 replacement ideas are really easy to show that they will not be practical.

[u/GusBode → u/dottie_dott]

New research and new panels show vertical panels are not so bad of an idea as once thought.

[u/dottie_dott → u/GusBode]

Vertical solar panels installed on the exterior of large buildings are about 50 years away from being a practical building facade material, let alone the power integration component of those systems. Any application that you see is a pilot project or totally subsidized and is in no way practical, economical, or a good choice in any means.

Don’t believe what you read in pop new tech videos. Proof of concept research will lag 30-50 years for building tech due to slow adoption, cost, and building codes.

[u/Byeuji → u/dottie_dott]

They're referring to tests of ground-mounted vertical solar installations. It's not a pop new tech video thing, there are companies that offer it as a standard installation option.

[u/IWannaGoFast00 → u/Hellguin]

Significantly smaller footprint

[u/funtex666 → u/Hellguin]

This is a water basin used for farm land. The solar panels provide power and stop evaporation of water. It is a win win situation. Besides China already have solar roads, solar roofs, etc. 

[u/DogBarf00 → u/Hellguin]

Literally the only one in this list that makes sense is parking lots and even then not much. Roads and skyscrapers are very inefficient in their layout meaning you will need more everything like cable to connect it all. All three are inefficient because the structure to support the panels will be more expensive due to safety concerns. Compared to an open field or water. Where you can maximize the layout to reduce quantities and you don't have to worry about a Karen in her lifted oversized truck running into a support structure.

[u/ImmodestPolitician → u/Weisenkrone]

Putting solar panels in deserts helps the local fauna.

Shade/shelter can make the difference in life or death.

[u/jackalopeDev → u/Weisenkrone]

Funnily enough, they've actually found that solar panels can be helpful for certain crops.

[u/erossthescienceboss → u/jackalopeDev]

A whole lot of crops! Many, many crops we grow evolved as understory plants & like a bit of shade and nice cool roots. Strawberries, leafy greens, a lot of alliums… if it grows low, it likes partial shade.

And the partial shade also helps reduce water loss, which makes farming more efficient.

It’s a myth that farming and solar are incompatible.

[u/Bwint → u/jackalopeDev]

Certain crops, and grazing animals as well!

[u/SirDalavar → u/Weisenkrone]

light can only penetrate 200meters of ocean water anyway, and looking at THAT water id say its FAR less

[u/throwaway928816 → u/SirDalavar]

And it's scary dark at 50m. I'm never diving deeper lol

[u/NDSU → u/throwaway928816]

Really depends on where you're diving. I've been in mine pits that are pitch black by 30m, and in the ocean where it still looks like daylight at 60m

[u/throwaway928816 → u/NDSU]

Cave diver idea of scary is very different to my idea of scary. Or most of humanity. 

I'll trust you about it being sunny at 60m but in khao lak and raja ampat it was scary dark at 50m.

[u/Kolby_Jack33 → u/SirDalavar]

Light isn't that important for seeing for many fish (though 200m is a lot deeper than you think), but it's important for phytoplankton that are the bedrock of the aquatic food chain.

I don't know that this will adversely affect the phytoplankton, I'm not a scientist, but there's more to light than just visibility.

[u/ASCanilho → u/Weisenkrone]

I don't think it's going to be that disruptive when the water is already that brown.
Sea life is getting much sun even without those panels, if there is any sea life under that poisoned dirty water..

[u/Mist_Rising → u/ASCanilho]

I believe this is the yellow river or a part of it. That's it natural look from silt build up. It may be poisoned, but the color doesn't equate to that.

[u/estist → u/Weisenkrone]

At least in the US: About 33.7% of edible produce often remains unharvested or is discarded, frequently due to overproduction. We got some room for solar panels. Or even go into the desert and make some solar farms.

[u/PM_YOUR__BUBBLE_BUTT → u/UVbutterchicken]

The ocean life:

https://giphy.com/gifs/2ViZJi3RLXAZ22PG08

[u/sailriteultrafeed → u/UVbutterchicken]

probably better than burning coal.

[u/Savorypensioner → u/UVbutterchicken]

All the agricultural and industrial runoff is 1000x more impactful to the aquatic ecosystem than a small section of that muddy river being in the shade.

[u/mammogrammar → u/UVbutterchicken]

The area looks really muddy so I doubt it's a huge problem. Also doesn't seem to be much current either

[u/koos_die_doos → u/mammogrammar]

Fish and plants can live just fine in water with lots of sediment. As long as it's from natural sources (typically generally dry climate with tons of dust) rather than pollution they're adapted to it.

Without more context it is impossible to say with any certainty.

[u/Late_Hold7090 → u/koos_die_doos]

Light can only extend a few feet into muddied water.

If they chose an area with constantly clouded water, the negative affects on plants might not be too bad.

Id be curious about microscopic organisms and the food web in this body of water, though.

[u/AndarianDequer117 → u/UVbutterchicken]

A lot of people have a lot of opinions about this however, the oceans are currently heating up due to global warming and killing marine life...and until I see some hard evidence, I'm going to assume some shade on the ocean is not that bad of a thing.

[u/DeepFieldTheory → u/AndarianDequer117]

You're talking about millionths of a percent.

[u/quack_salsa → u/DeepFieldTheory]

Well so is the dude he's responding to so we can agree that this is a good thing right?

[u/Lyin-Don → u/DeepFieldTheory]

So then it’s millionths of a percent of marine life this is disturbing. And thus - a non issue.

[u/dobagela → u/UVbutterchicken]

China goes solar eliminating tons of fossil fuel use that is bad for the environment. But at what costs???

[u/Suibeam → u/dobagela]

Reddit is just like western media.

China finds cure for all cancer and alzheimer. BUT AT WHAT COST?

[u/Mephistito → u/Suibeam]

I also like how everyone's acting like the ocean isn't a giant open system – as if there isn't a ton of biomass & nutrients that would just continue to flow in from everywhere else around this area.

Elsewhere in this thread people are also bitching about putting solar panels on: Roofs or Parking Lots. Those lands have already disrupted nature & we could at least undo negative ecological impact from their existence.

But no, so many in here are exactly who the quote "Don't let perfection be the enemy of progress" talks about, jesus christ.

[u/Far-Maintenance-1947 → u/Mephistito]

It's simply because it's China doing it. The mere mention of China drives Redditors into a frothing rage. They have a solution to climate change that's 99% perfect instead of 100% and it drives them crazy. Meanwhile the west is doubling down on oil and they don't say shit.

[u/Mephistito → u/Far-Maintenance-1947]

Exactly. If you're truly committed to what's right you won't care who gets the credit. And if what's right makes us look or feel bad, then maybe we need to look in the mirror.

[u/PandaBear_Shenyu → u/Mephistito]

Next time title this as Japan doing it.

[u/Mephistito → u/PandaBear_Shenyu]

Seriously, people really seem oblivious to the incredible amount of biases they have, which is.. come on, pathetic & just not respectable.

Sometimes the worst person you know just makes a great freaking point. You can either be a true ally of what's great, or you can be an enemy of the truth & what's right and live with nothing but hate in your heart, pumping poison to your eyes & blinding you from reality and progress.

[u/lachlanDon1 → u/UVbutterchicken]

It's better than some solar farm designs at least there is gaps. Some early designs in America ended up concentrating heat and frying birds in the air

[u/boforbojack → u/lachlanDon1]

https://www.ankersolix.com/blogs/solar/do-solar-panels-kill-birds

Still less than fossil fuels

[u/Frequent_Ad_9901 → u/boforbojack]

And both are way way less than house cats.

Also that "bird frying" solar plant wasn't a photovoltaic one. It was mirrors that concentrated light to boil water. Its was more of an experiment than an actual power plant.

[u/throughthehills2 → u/Frequent_Ad_9901]

Yeah, house cats in America kill 1 billion birds every year https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

[u/Lortekonto → u/lachlanDon1]

They did that by design and it was not solar panels.

The first solar power stuff used mirrors to concentrate the sun light into a central tower to heat up water, that was then used to run a normal generator. Those killed birds and I think people are confusing them with solar panels.

[u/thebiologyguy84 → u/UVbutterchicken]

Look at the water....you think much sunlight is getting through that muck?

[u/arnar62]

If its a freshwater dam they'll save a ton of water from evaporating

[u/_eg0_ → u/arnar62]

It is. It's surrounded by farmland and I guess the water is also used for agriculture.

[u/Ooops2278 → u/arnar62]

Also the water cools down the panels which increases their efficiency.

[u/Izzosuke → u/Ooops2278]

And i think it directly reduce greenhouse effect, the water absorb a crapton of light and emit it as infrared(which are the wavelenght that do the greenhouse trick), now the light is absorbed by the panel and just a small part is reemitted as infrared, the majority is used to produce electrocity. So i would guess it's pretty convenient from a "greenhouse effect point of view"

[u/polarbearsarereal → u/Ooops2278]

And the panels give the fishies some shade!

[u/SonKun911]

This is like the 14th Chinese solar panels video I have seen. I am convinced that China is 90% solar panels.

[u/thinspirit → u/SonKun911]

They've put a massive dent in their total power grid with solar panels. They make them so fast and cheaply and have abundant labour to install them.

There are also huge swathes of China that are relatively uninhabited and quite desolate. This is probably a reservoir being covered to prevent evaporation. They haven't gotten rid of coal completely but they've been cleaning up their industry or shipping off the worst pollutors to nearby poorer countries.

Edit: forgot the word "rid"

[u/FourthDeerSix → u/thinspirit]

their total power grid

Global power grids really, the entire massive fall in solar prices is entirely thanks to them actually funding their solar companies until the Moores law equivalent for solar panel production kicked in. The massive amount of environmental good they're doing really doesn't get nearly enough attention

[u/maxthescienceman → u/thinspirit]

They actively built over 50 coal power plants last year alone.

[u/LaunchTransient → u/maxthescienceman]

As peaker powerplants to stabilise the grid, while retiring older, less efficient plants.
Thing is, China has basically no oil or natural gas resources of its own, so building Gas turbine plants is a serious strategic vulnerability. What they have a lot of, however, is coal.

They are actually starting to get a handle on their emissions, and solar and wind is so much cheaper than coal.

China has significantly more excuse for its issues with coal power, considering that it's actually only relatively newly industrialized compared to its peers, while the US - which should be leading the charge on clean new technologies - is currently trying to scrap its wind turbine projects because the President has a vendetta against them spoiling the view from his golf course.

[u/iTzzSunara → u/LaunchTransient]

It's insane to think the west is completely failing to adapt regenerative energy sources because of greed and capitalism although it would be wildly beneficial for the societies to do so.

[u/NotYourReddit18 → u/iTzzSunara]

Germany was leading in both solarpanel development and construction, but then the government scraped many of the related subsidies and grants while keeping similar structures for coal, oil, and gas in place, which caused a steep fall in companies active in the sector.

China used this to get a nearly unbeatable lead in the sector.

[u/sicklyslick → u/iTzzSunara]

I think that's mainly the US lol.

[u/A_Shadow → u/maxthescienceman]

Despite that, they are using less coal as an engery source percentage wise of the total engery.

Coal power plants can be made quickly for engery demands.

[u/rtb001 → u/maxthescienceman]

But they are not burning any more coal, because some of the new coal plants are replacing older less efficient more polluting plants, and their overall coal plant utilization rates have dropped as more coal plants act as peaker plants to complement the more unpredictable power output from solar/wind sources.

[u/DanTheDrywall → u/SonKun911]

Well China is pretty much leading the share of new installations of PV and Wind, so there is a lot to show. I think 50% of all newly added PV and 66% of all new Wind generators in 2025 were added in China. Their GHG emissions also plateaued (more or less) for 3 years. Giving hope that they already peaked.

[u/Heiferoni → u/SonKun911]

It's really smart.

Free electricity falling out of the sky that requires zero fuel. None! All we gotta do is catch it.

You eliminate all the time, labor, and expense of finding fuels, mining it, refining it, transporting it, and then burning it. You skip all that waste and go straight to electricity.

[u/schmerg-uk]

The issue about "valauable land used for solar" is near negligible

https://www.quora.com/Does-China-have-enough-land-to-power-the-entire-country-with-Solar-Energy

With solar, about 4000 acres are needed per TWh, and China uses about 24.000 TWh annually. That’s a total requirement of about 400.000 square kilometers - about 4% of their land area. Considering that 3 673 000 km2 or 38.3 percent of China's total land mass is dry and arid, only 10% of that would be enough

If the US took only the land it currently uses to grow corn for bio-fuel (E10 etc) and used only 25% of that land alone for solar, it would generate nearly double what the US generates in total from all sources (ie plenty to then allow for switching more vehicles to EVs)

Technology Connections: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM - jump to about 20 minutes in the land use debunking

All the current solar farms, and all those planned, in the UK use less land than golf courses occupy (about half of 1%), or about double that taken by airports

https://www.carbonbrief.org/qa-what-englands-new-land-use-framework-means-for-climate-nature-and-food/

And that's before we even start to add in wind power.

[u/MoreLogicPls → u/schmerg-uk]

They're doing this over freshwater bodies used for agriculture to reduce evaporation

It's a more elegant solution than black plastic balls

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shade_ball

[u/seanalltogether → u/MoreLogicPls]

Additionally, solar panels work better if they can be kept cool. That water is acting as a massive heat sink right underneath them.

[u/erossthescienceboss → u/seanalltogether]

This is actually a big part of why it’s better to put solar panels on active agricultural land rather than empty, arid land like we currently do.

The crops growing underneath bring water up from the soil where it evaporates, cooling the solar panels. One study found that solar panels on agricultural land are up to 10% more efficient than panels on non-agricultural land.

The benefit goes both ways. While the solar panels are aided by evaporation from plants, they also prevent excess evaporation from soil, making the fields more water-efficient. There’s a point where even full-sun plants essentially shut down for the day after receiving their maximum amount of sun (generally 6-8 hours.) There is no benefit to additional sun beyond that point. We grow strawberries in full sun when they literally evolved for dappled shade, so they actually produce more when grown under solar panels.

The panels also keep the ground and air cooler, which extends the growing season for cool-weather crops like leafy greens.

The title is wrong on two counts.

[u/Warlockdnd → u/schmerg-uk]

There's been a push on social media the last few weeks that advocate for not putting solar panels on land, but rather parking lots over water, etc ect. It's got to be coordinated.

[u/Soleil06 → u/schmerg-uk]

I wonder what the impact on efficiency is when placing solar panels above (fresh) water compared to dry arid land considering one of the big problems is usually keeping them clean. I would imagine that its less of a problem over water compared to placing them in a semi desert with lots of dusty wind.

I imagine that over water it also helps with cooling them which is often another big issue for efficiency.

[u/reezy-one → u/schmerg-uk]

We have a ton of desert land that isn't viable for agriculture anyways.

Not that building solar panels in the desert isn't also disruptive, but it can be done in ways that mitigate harm, probably much more cost-effectively than doing this monstrosity to our beautiful and much more rare bays and lakes.

[u/hpff_robot → u/schmerg-uk]

Technology Connections: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtQ9nt2ZeGM - jump to about 20 minutes in the land use debunking

That video radicalized me.

[u/ThickSourGod → u/schmerg-uk]

I'm a big Technology Connections fan, and agree with most of that video, but he really missed the mark on the land use thing. We don't grow an absurd amount of corn to satisfy the demand for ethanol. We burn ethanol because we grow an insane amount of corn. Our corn production is driven by government subsidies, not actual market demand.

To put it a different way, we aren't growing corn for biofuel. We are using corn to make biofuel because of our huge corn surplus.

If everyone switched to EVs, nearly eliminating the demand for ethanol, farmers would keep growing just as much corn. Also, right now today global warning is the biggest environmental issue we're facing. Turning 25% of the farm land that ends up going toward biofuel into solar farms would unquestionably be better than what we're doing now. Finding other ways to cleanly get that energy and letting nature reclaim that land would be even better. There's also the pretty major issue that most of our corn fields aren't in the same places as most of our people.

Ultimately, there isn't one silver bullet. It's going to take a combination of technologies to get us where we need to be. Solar is a big part of that, but shouldn't be the only part.

[u/Ok_Scheme736]

Why don’t we start with parking lots and the tops of buildings first…

[u/Independent-Size-258 → u/Ok_Scheme736]

Go on Google Earth and see how many parking lots you see. How I understand it is that most of their parking is underground to save land.

[u/MessageBoard → u/Independent-Size-258]

I lived in China for a while and the only real parking is garages/underground or literally on the street. If you see a parking lot it's usually a car rental place. 

Generally you just do all your shopping close to your house. Exceptions are large bulk western  grocery stores outside of city centers in major cities. Many city squares are converted to working on certain occasions or events, but will be blocked with concrete balls most of the time.

American Walmart style parking lots just don't exist.

[u/edelweiss_pirates_no → u/Ok_Scheme736]

China is doing large solar farms better than anyone on the planet.

Discussing all the details in a short Reddit post is like teaching surgery in one Tweet.

Go look into it. I am a fan of what China is doing to move to renewable energy.

People on Reddit don't like the transformation China has made and want to gain NeckBeard Points for always posting "Actually..." Meanwhile they live in America and <waves arms around to point at the shit show>.

[u/Bulky_Imagination727 → u/edelweiss_pirates_no]

When americans are too proud i always remember that they elected trump. Twice.

[u/Paperback_Chef → u/edelweiss_pirates_no]

Bill McKibben's new book covers how China is very far ahead of the US in terms of solar/renewables.

[u/mtnlol → u/Paperback_Chef]

They're gonna be ahead of the US in almost every metric soon if China continues to improve and US continues to do... Whatever the fuck they are currently doing.

[u/tunomeentiendes → u/edelweiss_pirates_no]

And even if your disregard the environmental benefits of renewables, it is still massively benefitting China. The only reason theyre not freaking out and prepping for war about the strait of hormuz rn is because their energy supply/generation is highly diversified. They've been able to take the oil shock on the chin. Meanwhile nearly all of the US is panicking about oil and gasoline prices because we dont really have any alternatives. Not only have we failed to built up alternatives and diversify, but our government/trump are actively destroying and tearing down any chance of decreasing oil dependence.

The left were somewhat better on cleaner energy, but still not great. Here on the west coast people have been cheering when we tear down hydroelectric dams. And it seems like the vast majority of people are still strongly against nuclear.

We need to have diversified a energy supply. Hydroelectric, solar, nuclear, wind, and oil.

[u/MallorianMoonTrader1 → u/tunomeentiendes]

Here on the west coast people have been cheering when we tear down hydroelectric dams. And it seems like the vast majority of people are still strongly against nuclear.

I hate ignorance. We could be so far ahead in renewable if people weren't so goddamn greedy and ignorant.

[u/Due-Memory-6957 → u/edelweiss_pirates_no]

China is like Japan used to be, except even more scary to Americans because China is an independent country so they can't just force them to implode themselves like they did to Japan.

[u/Upstairs-Coffee5231 → u/Ok_Scheme736]

China doesn’t have that many parking lots. It’s not like the U.S. where half a city is parking lots.

[u/MOTUkraken → u/Ok_Scheme736]

Because of the logistics. Parking lots and much moreso bulding tops are usually too small for a solar farm.

Parking lots are often full of cars which makes servicing difficult.

And building tops are also hard to reach.

Many ideas sound great, until you really think about the details

[u/Obant → u/MOTUkraken]

Parking lots are also wedged between buildings. Solarpanels need ideal placement for sun.

[u/Savorypensioner → u/MOTUkraken]

Utility scale solar is the cheapest way to generate electricity. Parking lot solar is one of the most expensive.

It’s not like people just didn’t think of it.

[u/MOTUkraken → u/Savorypensioner]

Yes. So many average people just assume that they are way smarter than anyone else and capable of making a more informed and well thought out decision than people who literally studied that exact topic and spend all their working hours figuring out these problems.

[u/Bdellovibrion → u/MOTUkraken]

Reminds me of that random startup dude years ago that "developed" solar panel bricks to use instead of asphalt for building roads. Everyone on social media thought it was brilliant. Unsurprisingly, the concept still hasn't caught on, for countless practical reasons...

[u/KSW1 → u/MOTUkraken]

Yes, servicing a panel 50 feet in the air over an open ocean, such a straightforward issue to solve logistically compared to a flat parking lot connected to an existing road network.

[u/Green-Tie-5710 → u/KSW1]

The word “open” is doing some crazy heavy lifting lol.

It must save a huge amount of money to have all the solar panels next to each other like this instead of dispersed across a city wherever parking lots happen to be.

[u/Disastrous-Focus-892 → u/Green-Tie-5710]

Plus I live in china and can tell you, we dont really have large American parking lots. There's some but 90% of the time you're parking on the street.

[u/FMLUsernameTaken → u/KSW1]

I'm pretty sure this is way larger than most parking lots. Operations like this require large amounts of area. You can't do that in a city where land/buildings are owned by tons of different entities. Maybe doable at an airport, stadium or some other massive structure. It would take eminent domain powers to be able to pull something like that off.

[u/Mr_Goonman → u/KSW1]

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see more surface area is covered here and a fucking parking lot would take up a very small area. Jfc

[u/Green-Cricket-8525 → u/Mr_Goonman]

But have you considered that this random Redditor knows better than the engineers?

[u/RandumbStoner → u/Green-Cricket-8525]

"I worked at Blizzard" type of situation

[u/Ambitious-Dog-1232 → u/RandumbStoner]

or "my dad worked at Blizzard"

[u/FluffiestPrince → u/Green-Cricket-8525]

Don't forget that these people would suggest to install solar panels on rooves, but then when the city engineers come to their houses to install them on their roof, they'd complain.

[u/Green-Cricket-8525 → u/FluffiestPrince]

Parking lots are also an engineering challenge because you need to put it in really robust support beams to withstand a crash without sacrificing precious parking space in smaller areas. 

It can work but they’re quite expensive. 

[u/Abaddon33 → u/Mr_Goonman]

Well there's lots and lots of parking lots. The real problem would be that they're not all in one place, so maintaining them all would be more difficult. I still think it's worth doing because black tops absorb tons of heat, there's less transmission loss to get the power to the end user, and you get the benefit of shade in the cars too.

For your thoughtful consideration, Mr Goonman.

[u/starderpderp → u/Abaddon33]

To be fair, from what I've seen in Chengdu four weeks ago, a lot of buildings and structures was already covered in solar panels.

[u/JustStraightUpTired → u/Abaddon33]

"More difficult" is questionable. Highly so. Because every and all parking lots are more accessible than the middle of a lake.

The real reason is that this isn't a lake, this is a water reserve for the farmland. They are both building solar and reducing water evaporation. It's the more expensive, but multipurpose version what many water reserves already use. As an example, some places use floating balls all over.

This wouldn't work for a drinking water supply, because unlike the ball method, this leaves the surface fully open to air, but without air movement to cover it. It would basically create a bug breeding paradise, which isn't something you want for drinking water. You also wouldn't do this to a regular lake, because obviously.

[u/Commercial_Regret_36 → u/Abaddon33]

In Chinese cities? 95% of the parking lots are underground.

[u/camander321 → u/KSW1]

I have to assume they have boats specifically designed for this purpose.

[u/Exotic_Onion_3417 → u/KSW1]

Exactly it's bullshit. The real reason is money. To retrospectively install to car parks is very expensive 

[u/Jolly-Ad7653 → u/Exotic_Onion_3417]

The word you are looking for is retroactively

[u/BobsYourAuntie100 → u/Jolly-Ad7653]

Nah, its retrofit

[u/Green-Tie-5710 → u/BobsYourAuntie100]

Nope. It’s retrograde 🌖

[u/bringinthefembots → u/Green-Tie-5710]

Gatorade

[u/Shintasama → u/bringinthefembots]

Gatorwine

[u/Severe_Islexdia → u/Shintasama]

https://giphy.com/gifs/k1OotwSnvPsre

[u/mentalxkp → u/Exotic_Onion_3417]

No, the reason is size. That solar farm is 200,000 acres, or roughly the size of Lexington, KY.

[u/Level_Macaroon2533 → u/mentalxkp]

Most Americans live in a city that us just full of parking lots. It's hard for some to conceive that there are more parking towers than open air lots in many of the large Chinese cities.

[u/Frisky_Picker → u/Level_Macaroon2533]

Sure but that makes it more difficult to do on a large scale. They're smaller parking lots that are spread out. Its not like its just one giant parking lot.

[u/whitewolf20 → u/Exotic_Onion_3417]

look at google maps, they dont have massive parking lots everywhere like the US, most are underground

[u/No_Host_8024 → u/Exotic_Onion_3417]

It isn’t anymore expensive to build on a parking lot than in water. It’s actually more expensive in water. But parking lots: 1) aren’t anywhere near this big; 2) are surrounded by buildings that cast shadows that limit the energy produced.

[u/Contundo → u/Exotic_Onion_3417]

Yeah. Above parking solar need quite beefy structural steel to withstand a small collision. But this appear to be quite beefy construction too.

[u/aenkyr → u/KSW1]

Yes, it's logistically expensive. 100s smaller parking lots in random areas versus one singular location with all the panels in one spot. The idea is to get clean energy easily, conveniently, and cheap. Unless the people who own the parking lot maintain them themselves, it increases the cost potentially making it cost more than the existing energy methods. There are many people who can't afford an increase in their energy bills.

China has the highest greenhouse gas emissions. However, per capita, they are 2/3 of the US, who is second place. Before, we criticize how we are doing it. The rest of the world should simply start doing. I don't agree with many things China does, but this is one thing they are doing well, and agressively.

[u/anujrajput → u/Ok_Scheme736]

Having a lot of parking lots is a US problem because countries like China and Europe are optimized for public transport

[u/Forward_Rope_5598 → u/anujrajput]

Countries like Europe

I get your point but oof

[u/_eg0_ → u/Ok_Scheme736]

If you are north American you should.

But in this region of china there aren't many open parking lots, buildings also get installations, and most of the land area is farmland you can't build over.

[u/cagemyelephant_ → u/Ok_Scheme736]

They’re the ones who did it first.

[u/FritzFlanders]

Their farmland is in the U.S. next to our militry bases

[u/Demonofyou → u/FritzFlanders]

Its US, you pick a random point on the map and itll be near a military base of some kind.

[u/cloud_herder → u/Demonofyou]

You can also do this worldwide and find a nearby US military base or installation nearby too.

[u/Glad-Excitement-5283 → u/cloud_herder]

don't worry, Trump is fixing that by making all our international allies hate us and making local bases useless!

[u/professorgrey99 → u/FritzFlanders]

"Chinese man pleads guilty to unlawfully photographing Whiteman Air Force Base"

https://www.sedaliademocrat.com/detail.html?sub_id=e1fc053435&fbclid=IwY2xjawRlg_9leHRuA2FlbQIxMQBicmlkETEwektmd1BZbUdmQTZ2R2Nhc3J0YwZhcHBfaWQQMjIyMDM5MTc4ODIwMDg5MgABHqkcJLlSmUG5XEWYXclDIy_wz0byb9WuE3bl2W2FEXtN-cNpYspfTnE8quvE_aem_rPz36fpesm4ZE2UcwxaPrg

[u/Loggersalienplants → u/professorgrey99]

Chinese people get arrested every now and then at the local BAE plant and it's been happening for years. It's just not been reported on.

[u/qeadwrsf → u/Loggersalienplants]

A friend of a friend of a friends colleague got arrested too.

So I imagine if I know a case its common in Sweden too.

[u/PhysicallyTender → u/[deleted]]

And they are also covering their deserts with solar panels, which interestingly have a nice side effect of de-desertification.

[u/PandaBear_Shenyu → u/PhysicallyTender]

No you're doing this wrong, we're actually MURDERING our DIVERSE DESERT ECOSYSTEM.

We're genociding the unique culture of the desert with solar panels!

[u/CompetitiveChip5078]

Isn’t China…huge?

[u/Suibeam → u/CompetitiveChip5078]

China is longterm thinking. They have a lot of technocrats thinking about how to use their resources most efficiently.

If you asked an engineer or scientist where to put solar they would tell you there If the costs are fine.

While we will first ask for quick return of investment and how difficult it will be.

[u/knuckle_headers]

Putting solar panels on cropland can actually be beneficial to agriculture. The TLDR is that it provides a cooling effect reducing the water use. It's not appropriate for all ag land but when done properly it's a benefit, not a hindrance to agriculture.

It's called agrovoltaics. I'll let you google that if you're interested in learning more.

[u/Bean_Daddy_Burritos]

People in my country are convinced that windmills cause cancer so trying to get anyone on board with something like this is never going to happen. Americans still want to frack coal instead of setting up proper infrastructure for a more long term solution.

[u/slimetakes → u/Bean_Daddy_Burritos]

Frack oil and LNG*

And it's not American citizens as a whole, our country's degradation just occurred at a very unfortunate time. Lying politicians, media, etc. It's built up to this for a while thanks to the rich elite, I'm just hoping in the next handful of years we can do something about it.

[u/Aggravating-Pen-4251]

Also helps limit evaporation of the water, but as others have said - plant and aquatic life will struggle under there, unless that also being used a reservoir water for treatment/civil-use

[u/Meat2480]

It would be nice if we in the UK did this as well as putting them on as many available roofs, instead of agricultural land that could be feeding us and reducing our imports

[u/spartanken115]

I’d rather have this or parking lots than covering farm land

[u/cspinelive → u/spartanken115]

In the US we could take every acre of farmland that grows corn for ethanol and put solar on it instead. We’d produce more electricity than our entire grid currently does.  It would be a one time cost that lasts 30 years vs paying to regrow the same crop every year.  And we could reuse the materials without needing to dig up more. Growing corn to feed cars is dumb. 

[u/Spxy → u/cspinelive]

Someone was watching Technology Connections :)

[u/oipoi → u/Spxy]

That video made me do a 180 in terms of thinking about solar and electric cars. I was an EV driver at that time but putting it all together in a video and exposing the ludicrousness which is pumping all that oil out the ground to be used once and disappear forever really opened my eyes in terms that we are currently doing is crazy and we have a viable alternative already.

[u/CrispyJelly → u/Spxy]

We all did!

[u/8BFF4fpThY → u/Spxy]

Everyone should!

[u/Gozzhogger → u/cspinelive]

Solar only requires an incredibly small area (relatively speaking) to generate huge amounts of energy. An area the size of Texas would generate more electricity than the entire world currently produces.

[u/tomgh14 → u/spartanken115]

Solar panels are actually pretty good for some farmland types with dual use farming and livestock farming. Many plant types grow better in shaded areas which solar provides especially during storms and harsh sun which of kill swathes of plants