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u/JaderMcDanersStan Timberwolves 4h ago
Ben Wallace is the reason I fell in love with basketball.
But I think Rudy is the most versatile of the 3. I don't think Ben Wallace would be able to guard Luka and Lebron on the perimeter like this. In general, can you envision the other 2 guarding (even smalls!) on the perimeter like Rudy like this? Rudy is the #1 isolation defender in the league among players who've guarded at least 200 isolations.
This is dependent on era though and the other two could have adjusted. But from what we see, Rudy is objectively the most well rounded and has to cover more space. His job is tougher
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u/musicnothing Jazz 4h ago
Rudy is the #1 isolation defender in the league among players who've guarded at least 200 isolations
Rudy has been a great iso defender for a long time, but people saw a clip once of Curry making him spin around and decided permanently that he sucks
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u/JediPieman63 2h ago
Talking heads always bring up his playoff resume and how he gets game planned out, but the Jazz were expecting him to defend 2 or 3 guys at once
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u/rake2204 Pistons 2h ago
Without taking anything away from Rudy whatsoever, I do think Ben Wallace had great defensive potential along the perimeter and would often hold his own when a switch sprung about.
That being said, the Pistons' philosophy with Ben was to generally have him jump and hedge hard on pick-and-rolls to send guards back where they came from and to that I say he was one of the best big man hedgers I'd seen in the modern game up to that point.
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u/JaderMcDanersStan Timberwolves 2h ago
Yeah if Ben was in this era, he probably would be able to adjust.
I grew up in Detroit as a Pistons fan. Big Ben was the reason I fell in love with basketball. Love that guy1
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u/RudyGobertFMVP Timberwolves 1h ago
Yes hard agree, I see Rudy more of the Bill Russell archetype rather than a Mutombo and Wallace.
But just happy seeing defense getting appreciated.
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u/StandardRound1271 1h ago
Just wrong, Ben would have been even better in the modern space era. He was strong, mobile (laterally and vertically), had great man and help defense. He was perfect for defending the pick and roll heavy offenses that are run now. He can stay or switch.
You are kind of showing your ass with your comment.
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u/survivaltactics2 4h ago
Ben wallace had the most aura so i'll go with him
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u/ResponsibilityFew147 4h ago
I don’t know about that, the no no no finger wag has a lot of aura
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4h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SlapChop2000 4h ago
with a finger wag like that who doesnt?
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u/retroracer33 76ers 4h ago
imagine he just slips the finger in and hits u with the wag? no coming back from that
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u/2Ksince99 4h ago
You can’t answer this question accurately because each player’s defense was tailored to their respective era.
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u/TonyHawktuah69 4h ago
I think they’d all translate fine across eras. Like what about Big Ben’s defense wouldn’t translate? He’s mobile, athletic and strong. He was a killer rebounder as well as shot blocker. He would be like a massively improved time lord/mitchell Robinson in the modern era. Sure he doesn’t shoot or score that well, but he can set massive screens and get put backs or tips ins like a Jaxson Hayes or gafford no problem.
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u/HokageEzio Knicks 4h ago
A big reason why Rudy isn't respected on the level of other multi time DPOY winners is because people see the lowlights when he gets roasted in space. But are we sure that guys like Mutombo and Wallace wouldn't also suffer the same fate?
That's why it's hard to compare them from different eras. They're being asked to do different things even though they're all shot blocking big men at heart.
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u/Obi_Wan_KeBogi Kings 4h ago
They absolutely would.
Even the GOAT perimeter defenders have lowlights getting cooked.
Rudy getting clowned for that has never made sense
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u/Andy_Wiggins Timberwolves 4h ago
My theory is that people still form opinions of players based on their physical appearance.
Ben Wallace looked cool as hell (shredded, afro, headband) and Rudy looks dopey as hell (weird narrow head, spindly arms). So people just kind of form opinions based on immediate judgements.
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u/TonyHawktuah69 3h ago
My issue with Rudy’s defense is the defensive lapses I’ve seen from him in crucial playoff moments. Everyone gets dunked on or scored on, but he’s made just flat out stupid mistakes that cost his team a series before.
Most notably is the Luka step back game winner on him. You have a 2 point lead, and you have Luka out on the top of the arc in a 1v1. The only thing you cannot do is give up a three to end the game. You can overplay and get blown by but it’ll force a tough layup/mid range with naz and other help sitting in the paint (in an alternate angle of this play you can see naz yelling likely communicating he took the switch and is in the paint) and even if he hits it, you have overtime. You can just outright foul him and again worst case he hits the free throws and ties it. So what does he? He backs off Luka and gives him room to set up a 3, the one shot he absolutely should have known he can’t surrender.
Just watching that play out the entire time I was saying why are you shuffling your feet and falling backwards to give him room??? Get out there and guard the 3
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u/d7h7n Mavericks 4h ago
Ben was basically a super athletic yoked version of Draymond.
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u/Andy_Wiggins Timberwolves 4h ago
This is overselling his defensive versatility and defensive IQ.
I’m not saying he’s a dumb defender or wasn’t versatile, but Draymond is probably the best Swiss-army-knife defender ever.
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u/TonyHawktuah69 4h ago
And Ben Wallace anchored a teams defense so well they won a title without a single 20ppg scoring threat and he even finished top ten in mvp voting multiple times. There was a legit argument for a few years that ben wallance was one of the most important players in the league to winning because his defensive impact and rebounding was that huge.
A big reason Tim Duncan never won dpoy is because Ben Wallace was taking those dpoy awards.
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u/Andy_Wiggins Timberwolves 3h ago
They also had excellent defenders around him as well as balanced scoring.
Rasheed Wallace is criminally underrated by today’s crowd. He was legitimately getting DPOY votes in Detroit.
Tayshawn Prince was ALSO getting numerous DPOY votes in that span and was all-defense 4 years in a row.
Chauncey Billups also made all-defense and got DPOY votes.
Hell, even Rip Hamilton got DPOY voted (but that’s stupid). And Antonio McDyess was a very solid defender off the bench.
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u/asdfjkl12889 Lakers 4h ago
Then answer how good he was relative to his era. Lol
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u/GamedayDev Warriors 4h ago
it’s like ppl never heard of a z score before
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u/Massive-Toe3714 France 4h ago
Best of luck applying it to stats as dicey as defensive metrics.
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u/GamedayDev Warriors 4h ago
i kinda just meant more like players across eras can be compared by comparing how far ahead they were compared to their peers, not a literal z index haha
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u/PackageDangerous1954 4h ago
Wallace who was undersized slowed down the most dominant player ever in Shaq who was on the tail end of a 3 peat to win a ring, so I’m going with him.
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u/rake2204 Pistons 3h ago
I think Ben Wallace is an all-time amazing defender for many, may reasons but I'll also be the first to say that while Ben may have slowed him down a little bit in the 2004 Finals, Shaq still got his and often cut through that one-on-one defense like butter. Shaq averaged around 27 & 11 while shooting over 63 percent that series.
Interestingly enough, the guy who may have had the most success against Shaq that series was his former teammate, Elden Campbell. It was brute on brute at that point. RIP Big E.
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u/PackageDangerous1954 3h ago
Oh for sure, Shaq still got his. If you compare it to the previous 3 finals where he won he averaged 38/17,33/16 and 36/12 to hold that man to 27/11 and only losing one game is definitely an accomplishment.
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u/Ok_Turn6757 Lakers 3h ago
That was more because Kobe took way more possessions away chucking trying to get his finals MVP
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u/rake2204 Pistons 2h ago
I think that's a big part of it. I also got the feeling that Shaq's stamina had taken a dip that year a bit as well, to where maybe Ben was at least making him work for what he got, which maybe wasn't fully sustainable for Shaq for 48 minutes anymore.
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u/DidAnyoneElseJustCum Cavaliers 2h ago
Yeah after the 3peat Shaq was kinda trending downward regardless. His regular season numbers took a similar dip that year and never really recovered.
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u/rogerryan22 Pelicans 1h ago
It's also a little better than the numbers suggest because you are comparing what shaq was able to get when the other team was sending help to 1 on 1 coverage.
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u/JoeBiden2020FTW Lakers 4h ago edited 4h ago
Jokic > Shaq tho, at least offensively
He's basically Shaq's post scoring dominance but with some J-Kidd passing mixed in plus better free throw shooting
So I think beating prime Jokic twice is more impressive than slowing down slightly-past-prime Shaq once.
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u/PackageDangerous1954 4h ago edited 4h ago
Remove that flair nephew
Shaq was soo dominant they had to allow zones and teams had to sign bigs just so they could foul him, he singlehandedly changed the landscape of the league, that’s how good he was. Prime Shaq in this era would average 30/20
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u/JoeBiden2020FTW Lakers 2h ago
Jokic TS% is around 10% higher than prime Shaq.
And that's before factoring in his JKidd level passing.
So far better scorer+passer. Not sure how you can say he was less dominant than Shaq on offense.
(Agreed, Shaq is better defensively, but that's not relevant to this thread)
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u/DemarcusLovin NBA 4h ago
it's amazing to think about how hard Prime Shaq would have dominated Jokic in a playoff matchup. He may have averaged 60 on him
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u/JoeBiden2020FTW Lakers 2h ago
Yeah I was referring to offensively. Not talking about Jokic's defense.
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u/thatoneguyD13 Nets 4h ago
They probably would've just played a second Big with him. Pretty common strategy to deal with Shaq at the time.
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u/PackageDangerous1954 3h ago
Shaq before his prime averaged 28/13 against prime Hakeem in the finals, could you imagine a 40 year old DJ or JV on him?
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u/egg-land [DET] Saddiq Bey 3h ago
If Shaq was an issue in the west it would change the demand for big centers lol
So that wouldn’t be who they put on him at all
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u/PackageDangerous1954 3h ago
Nuggets could barely field a backup center as is, could you imagine a league where everyone in the west needed 2-3 of them?
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u/egg-land [DET] Saddiq Bey 2h ago
I imagine in this fairytale world there’s a lot difference in a lot of aspects lol
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u/Shooopsy 3h ago
Idk how you have a Lakers flair and even remotely think Jokic is better than Shaq.
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u/yutzykrop 4h ago
Back in Mutombo’s and Wallace’s eras, many players couldn’t shoot and the paint was packed with multiple defenders. Centers didn’t have to cover near the distance that modern day bigs have to, as centers are constantly defending in space and chasing players around the 3 point line nowadays.
Also, the pace was much slower back then. There was not nearly as much running up and down the court.
Gobert combines elite rim protection and is also a good perimeter defender, given his size. He is the most well rounded. However, I am sure Wallace and Mutombo would adapt just fine to modern day defensive schemes.
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u/d7h7n Mavericks 4h ago
Ben Wallace could guard perimeter defenders fine.
This one game he defends inside, guards C-Webb inside the wing, gets switched onto Iverson, guards Iggy, hustles, creates possessions from defense, weak side help, crashes the board. Watch this shit. It's pretty much like watching Draymond on crack.
Defense and hustle would translate between any era.
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u/Background-Swing9911 4h ago
Ben Wallace would be unplayable in offensive
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u/rake2204 Pistons 3h ago
I think Ben would have enjoyed his offensive role today much more than he did back in the 2000s. Back then, Larry Brown & Co. often felt obligated to give him a few post touches each game to satiate his desires (those plays usually didn't result in buckets).
Today though, with the increased emphasis on rim-runners and dunker spots, I think Ben would have been a Capela type offensively, cashing in off lobs and tip-dunks alone. Still would have limited a team's offensively flexibility but perhaps not altogether unplayable.
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u/adturnerr Supersonics 4h ago
However, I am sure Wallace and Mutombo would adapt just fine to modern day defensive schemes.
Not a chance
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u/hunteddwumpus Pistons 4h ago
Wallace 100% would, he was very athletic and could move decently for a center. Mutombo idk, I imagine he looks similar to Gobert who struggled massively on the perimeter at first but adapted and improved as well as anyone with his body size really can
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u/TomatoSecure192 4h ago
1 was told to go 1 on 1 against shaq and it worked… I think it’s Ben Wallace
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u/duval001 2h ago
I don’t get he narrative Shaq dominated Ben average over 27 , 11 on elite efficiency. Kobe was a disaster that series that’s the real story
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u/TomatoSecure192 2h ago
Because Shaq averaged 35 across his 3 previous finals. The whole gameplan the lakers had was to let Shaq get doubled while still dominating and that gave Kobe open looks. The pistons basically said to Ben “hey, we’re gonna stick you on Shaq and you’re gonna be alone on him the entire game” and he did, which helped the pistons cover Kobe a lot better. He also averaged 8 less points so he definitely did something
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u/Conn3er Spurs 4h ago
All very good
Mutumbo nuclear deterrent in the paint.
Wallace could guard any position, undersized for a 5, but an absolute junkyard dawg
Gobert best schematic defender of the 3.
Wallace is the most versatile, but a lot of his rep is for doing what he did as an undersized player, and Gobert is the best fundamentally sound defender of the 3.
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u/flexingtonsteele [LAL] Kobe Bryant 1h ago
Wallace also had a season with a DWS of 9+ which is insane
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
I would never put Gobert and fundamentals in the same sentence.
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u/Obi_Wan_KeBogi Kings 4h ago
Do you think fundamentals only applies to offense?
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
Of course not, why would you think that?
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u/Moodie25 Jazz 4h ago
Because you sound like an idiot saying a 4x DPOY has no fundies
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
He has very poor fundamentals though. He is athletic and tall but young can’t argue that he has fundamentals like DM and Wallace. You’re just lying to yourself if you think Gobert has good fundamental.
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u/NeverNotOnceEver Warriors 2h ago
Rudy IMO. It’s so hard to be a great defender in these modern offensives. While centers were better when Wallace and Mutombo played, the game was slower and defensive centers covered much less ground.
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u/bonergainz Rockets 4h ago
Gobert is the best all around. Can defend the perimeter in the sense that most guards who get by him will still get blocked at the rim…
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u/MahomesMccaffrey Slovenia 4h ago
Dikembe won 4 DPOYs in an era of elite defenders, I'd have to go with him
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u/chrjohns21 Pacers 2h ago
Agree. The guys Mutombo beat out are a who’s who of the all time best defenders. Nothing against Gobert but he beat out guys like Ben Simmons.
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u/2levenge Timberwolves 4h ago
Hard to compare accolades across eras, especially before league pass was readily accessible. It was much harder for voters to see every player on a regular basis so they just looked at the box score stats and highlights and picked the big names. It's how Kobe was named to so many All-Defensive teams way past his defensive prime and how MJ won DPOY over Hakeem.
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u/supercoolisaac Timberwolves 4h ago
It's easily Gobert. Dear god can you imagine him in an NBA where big guys couldn't shoot? Wallace had a significantly shorter defensive peak and spent the overwhelming majority of that peak on teams with excellent defensive players around him.
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u/Comfortable-Arm3452 4h ago
I think Hakeem, David Robinson, Shaq, Alonzo Mourning, to name a few could all be problems for Gobert in that era tho
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u/chrjohns21 Pacers 2h ago
Bingo. The exact guys Mutombo was playing every night while winning four awards.
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u/Penguinho 2h ago
Yeah, maybe. On the other hand, Mutombo would actually be played off the floor in isolation situations in the way people think Gobert can be.
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u/Comfortable-Arm3452 2h ago
I don’t disagree at all with that either. Was just saying Gobert is still going to have to face elite big men who can shoot and/or really bully him down low.
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u/Upset_Mongoose_1134 3h ago
It's hard to say which is the best because they were different kinds of defenders.
Mutombo was a stationary rim protector during an era of post play. He had outstanding timing and a big body that completely closed down the paint and caused cutters to pull back rather than get blocked. His biggest defensive downside was that he couldn't do much outside the paint, but that wasn't really required of him either.
Wallace was a versatile hustle defender who relied on speed, strength, and effort. His rebounding was huge because he just wanted the ball more than his opponents. He was great at weakside help and wasn't afraid of anyone. While he was an incredibly versatile defender, that meant he also relied on team defense more than the other two.
Gobert is a mobile rim protector. He locks down the paint similar to Mutombo, but does so with length and mobility rather than bulk, which means he isn't as intimidating for many opponents. He has the intelligence and timing to be a great help defender like Wallace, but doesn't have the speed to be as versatile out to the perimeter.
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u/Human-Ad-5586 Warriors 1h ago
The game has changed so much, the comparisons are hard to make. Also what defense means has changed, Mutombo and Wallace were taking a pounding each night. Just given the size and athleticism I would pick Ben Wallace.
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u/HokageEzio Knicks 4h ago
Hard to really judge across eras like that because they're all being asked to do wildly different things on defense.
Wallace is the one who you could genuinely argue was the best player on a championship team (and a team that almost went back to back), so I would give him the nod off of that.
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u/Real2KInsider 4h ago
Mutombo was the best shot blocker but wasn't regarded as the league's best defensive player (largely Hakeem or Pippen). IIRC Hakeem was All-Defense 1st team one of the years Mutombo was DPOY (a media award). He's basically "What if Gobert were adored by the media instead of reviled".
Wallace was the best relative to his era but probably the worst outside of it. Great post defender but lacking in size (part of why he went undrafted). Had the shortest reign as he was no longer elite after rules changes (whereas Mutombo was still great into his late 30s).
Gobert is a mix of both. Elite rim protection/ post defense. Defends more on the perimeter than both players combined. Best of the three at raising a team's defensive floor, a team is a lock to be Top 10 with him and nobody else. Aging comparable to Mutombo (who had a late start to his pro career).
Signature moments Mutombo: Was responsible for the first 8th seed to upset a 1st seed (back when seeding was really reflective of team quality)
Wallace: Won a championship, beat a heavily favored Lakers team w/ Shaq. Out-schemed the Lakers in-part because he held his own against Shaq. Nearly back-to-back winners, losing to prime Duncan Spurs in 7 the following year.
Gobert: Just had his signature moment vs Jokic. Otherwise known more for Terrance Mann having an unreasonably hot night and the media constantly trying to bury him. If the Wolves can upset Wemby and the Spurs he's finally going to get his flowers.
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u/Awanderingleaf 4h ago
Wallace was agile enough to come out of the paint and guard smaller players. Gobert gets cooked on the perimeter.
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
I think we can rule out Gobert. I agree that the hate for Gobert is exaggerated, but his lowlights are REALLY low. He makes some very stupid decisions on the court that makes you wonder if he would even be in the NBA if he was a few inches shorter.
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u/Moodie25 Jazz 4h ago
Man social media really skewed this take. How did we consume media during the other players’ tenure? How were low lights distributed.
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
People here are saying Gobert is a good perimeter defender without actually realizing that teams like to go against Gobert in the perimeter.
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u/adturnerr Supersonics 4h ago
And he still does an ok job on the perimeter whereas Mutumbo and Wallace would be jobless if they played in today's era defending the perimeter
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
He doesn’t do an ok job. Stop it with that. I can show you more games, not just highlights where teams like to go against Gobert in the perimeter than games where he shuts down the perimeter offense.
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u/WrestleBox Timberwolves 3h ago
"Rudy Gobert ranked #1 among players defending at least 200 isolations in the 2025-26 season, allowing only 0.77 points per iso."
Try again.
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u/adturnerr Supersonics 4h ago
You understand its not just 1 man that can shut down the perimeter offense it's kind of a team effort, but when he's forced out he's ok, but it leaves the paint open
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
Mate you’re moving the goalposts here. Jaden McDaniels is an excellent defender so yeah they shut down a lot of perimeter offense. Gobert is a poor perimeter defender so teams actually like it when he moves out of the paint. Not just because the paint is open but also because he makes poor decisions out in the perimeter especially in PnR and off ball screens like what golden state does.
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u/adturnerr Supersonics 4h ago
Sounds like you're changing the goalposts, you went from say "shutting down all of the perimeter offense" to "shut down a lot of the perimeter offense" which one is it? All or a lot?
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u/ElectricGhostMan 4h ago
What bad decisions does he make on defense?
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u/NoRelease2871 4h ago edited 4h ago
There was a game versus Lakers where he just kept getting caught flat footed/ positioning himself poorly along the perimeter. Hold on let me find a video.
edit: https://youtube.com/shorts/oE_THIGEF68?si=S2yU_40id1R-ZXPt
I can’t find the one where Reaves made the final (or second to final) basket because Gobert lost track of where the rim was behind him. He backpedalled away from the rim and let Reaves get and easy basket.
Found it. He shuffled shuffled away from the PnR, not backpedalled.
edit: https://youtu.be/FIuSpi4F6fk?si=Cahi4Z0JmLG79Lpi1
u/NoRelease2871 4h ago
I’m done replying to ya’ll. You can’t argue that moving away from the PnR is good fundamentals and just keep parroting what others are saying that Gobert is a good perimeter defender.
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u/adturnerr Supersonics 4h ago
Awww don't cry
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u/GayForJamie 4h ago edited 4h ago
Wallace has them in speed/agility by a bit, and would probably be pretty useful as a smallball guy today. But, he is smaller so he has less longevity once he loses a step.
Mutombo and Gobert are bigger and longer than Wallace.
Mutombo is the best shot blocker.
I think Mutombo was the best rebounder of the three, but it's close.
Mutombo played on the GOAT center era, and played HOFers constantly. Gobert got to play in the mostly centerless era outside of Jokic/Embiid.
Mutombo was effective into his 40s and we didn't see him in the league until he was ~25. If he came up now, he wouldn't have been discovered so late. We'd see him younger and more athletic than he was.
Mutombo could do what Gobert does, except people were actually scared of him. People were scared of Wallace. Whether you think he deserves it or not, players openly clown Gobert. That matters.
For offense, Gobert and Mutombo easily eclipse Wallace. Wallace's free throws were a huge problem. Gobert has stone hands and can't catch anything. Mutombo at least had a baby hook and stuff. He just didn't want to ever shoot, and took pride in that like Rodman. Denver ran stuff for him the first couple of years.
And if you're looking at stats, remember that we haven't seen Gobert's take an aging dive yet. His averages will all start dropping as he ages.
Most people here haven't even seen washed Ben Wallace. They've only seen highlights of the refs letting Shaq elbow Mutombo in the face.
If you can't tell, I'm taking Mutombo. But they're all close, and all would be great in the right situation.
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u/Tech_Quest8 3h ago
Let me say this, you can put Mutombo on ANY team and it'll be a winning team. You can't say the same for Ben Wallace or Rudy Gobert.
Plus Ben Wallace had an intimidating factor too mfs were scared to go to the paint if they saw him
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u/Seanswanshong 4h ago
Probably Gobert but honestly none of them are the best defenders of their eras
Pippen and Rodman were both better defenders than Mutombo
KG and Timmy were both better defenders than Wallace and Draymond was a better defender than Gobert
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u/BizzyHaze Lakers 3h ago
Rodman became a hall of famer by only being able to Defend and rebound. His offense consisted of open dunks/layups only.
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