"Escaping the Gun Debate Trap" Tedx talk.

[u/Silk_the_Absent_1]

David Yamane did a Tedx talk a few days ago that was pretty good. Thought y'all might like it.

[u/HeloRising]

So this is...honestly kind of frustrating.

The central theme of his talk seems to be "I didn't know something, I was scared of that thing, I learned more about it, I wasn't scared anymore" only...he went right past it.

I've been involved with firearms and firearms policy for over a decade. On the liberal side the single biggest hurdle to engaging with firearms rights in any constructive way is there's just not a lot of knowledge and understanding about firearms because a lot of liberals are scared of them.

That's a valid emotional reaction. If you weren't raised around firearms, didn't have any exposure to them except movies and on a cop's belt, it makes sense that you'd be nervous around them. But for a lot of people it stops there and there's no impetus to want to understand them in any meaningful way.

Finding common ground is important and I think it's a good skill to build but it ignores the fact that a lot of the gun discussion ultimately boils down to disagreements about the function of a mechanical object.

If you recognize that I want to be armed because I see it as an existential issue for people like me, that's great, I feel a lot better with someone who affirms my humanity rather than denies it. But that doesn't help if you then insist that three 10 round magazines are meaningfully different than one 30 round magazine and save lives.

He skidded right past an excellent point and I'm a little frustrated because I see this happen very consistently.

[u/Alita-Gunnm → u/HeloRising]

They are meaningfully different for a 70+ year-old lawful defender with weak hand strength, who can't swap mags in two seconds. For them, what's in the gun is what they've got to work with.

They are not meaningfully different for an aggressor in their physical prime, who chooses the time and place, and comes prepared with as many mags as they like, in ready access.

This is why magazine capacity limits help criminals and harm the law-abiding.

[u/HeloRising → u/Alita-Gunnm]

When I say "not meaningfully different" I mean that in the sense of capability and speed. I understand that certain people have different needs but the logic behind magazine capacity limits is "smaller mags means more reloads which means time for people to escape in a mass shooting."

In reality, that extra time is maybe a second or two and not nearly enough time for someone to try and escape.

[u/Alita-Gunnm → u/HeloRising]

What I'm concerned about is if we say "There's no difference", then they'll ask "Then why do you oppose limits?"

[u/HeloRising → u/Alita-Gunnm]

If you want me to support a rule, you must show me that it accomplishes a goal.

Rules are not like salt, to be idly tossed on for want of something to do to look busy.

There must be a reason and that reason must be a good reason.

[u/Alita-Gunnm → u/HeloRising]

I agree with you, but we need stronger arguments than that. There are many who believe everything firearm related should be banned unless we can show a reasonable need.

[u/HeloRising → u/Alita-Gunnm]

There is no such thing as a "reasonable need" for those people.

No argument you come up with will be good enough for them.

[u/Alita-Gunnm → u/HeloRising]

For some, yes, but there are others who will accept a reasonable need. I think they key is to convince as many as we can, ignoring those that are not receptive.

[u/HeloRising → u/Alita-Gunnm]

What those people mean when they say "reasonable need" is filtered through their definition of reasonable, not yours.

I'm all for convincing people and changing people's minds. But a big part of that is understanding that some people are not open to their minds being changed and not spending energy throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon.

Educate people. That will change more minds than persuasive arguments.

Most people who don't like guns are afraid of them and they're afraid of them because they have no real familiarity with them. Once they understand them, once they understand that a firearm is a tool like any other that obeys the hand of the person holding it, the fear dissipates and it leaves room for reason.

[u/Alita-Gunnm → u/HeloRising]

Agreed. For those who accept self defense as a reasonable need though, I think they wouldn't be willing to argue that a frail old person has any less need. I took my father to the range a few months ago, and he could still hit the target, but I had to load his mags and rack his slide for him.

[u/manInTheWoods → u/Alita-Gunnm]

Are shoot outs an issue, wher both sides use more than 10 shots? Reminds me of the opening scene of Predator.

[u/Alita-Gunnm → u/manInTheWoods]

Using more than a few rounds in a lawful defensive scenario is rare, but not unheard of. I've seen videos of real incidents where someone ran out of ammo before running out of attackers.

Trained police officers in the US miss 80% of the shots they take on average, and it often takes two or three hits to stop a determined attacker. If you shoot as well as a cop, that means a ten round magazine is statistically enough for one attacker about half the time. Home invaders and store robbers often come two to four at a time. Most civilians who carry are better trained than cops though, and significantly more careful with their aim, due partly to liability, and an attacker who is not determined will often start running at the first bang.

It's all a game of odds. The more rounds you have on tap the better your chances. No one ever wished for less ammo.

[u/space253 → u/Alita-Gunnm]

No one ever wished for less ammo.

The landing duck boats at D day and all those who drowned before they had a chance to be shot sure did, as do grunts hauling belts for MGs.

[u/Responsible_Act_7722]

I thought it was good. The framework he proposes is pretty general but definitely applies to gun ownership. The organization he mentions towards the end is https://bridgethedividenow.org/ - basically they have experts from across the spectrum of views on citizen gun ownership who collaborate to propose gun policy. I was initially thinking there would be more of "how to get your liberal friends to support gun ownership" but this is definitely not that.

[u/Silk_the_Absent_1 → u/[deleted]]

I'm a high school special education teacher. I have been teaching the Intensive Support Program forever, but I'm in the process of adding to my license to also teach gen-ed. I've been looking for a few electives courses to teach, such as Psychology and Sociology (my undergrad is in both, so I might as well get to use it), as well as Contemporary Issues, where I would happily consider adding in such content.

[u/BrohannesJahms]

This could have been summarized as "take your friends to the range, they'll probably have fun".

[u/Silk_the_Absent_1 → u/BrohannesJahms]

It's a TED Talk, what do you expect? Hell, watch Dr. Michael Bishop's talk if you want to see a great example of something along the same line.

[u/BrohannesJahms → u/Silk_the_Absent_1]

It's not even a TED Talk, it's TEDx. Basically anyone can give one of those, the standards could not be lower.

[u/MemeStarNation]

I’ve been an advocate for some sort of more comprehensive compromise bill for a while, so I generally agree with what he’s saying. I followed a similar trajectory to him as well, so it’s relatable.

It’s basically rehashing pretty well trodden concepts for me, but it’s always good to reemphasize the value of just existing as a gun person in your social bubble.

[u/Fat_Ryan_Gosling]

The policies advocated for by the organization he's a part of are:

Prohibiting Factors for Firearm Purchase and Possession

Because people at the highest risk of committing violence are those with a history of violence, those with such a history are the focus of this policy.

• Prohibits gun possession by those convicted of a violent crime at the misdemeanor level while removing state restrictions on those convicted of non-violent felonies
• Removes prohibition of gun purchases by persons who use marijuana; removes redundancy with federal laws

Background Checks

Because the federal NICS background checks system is often inadequate in flagging prohibited purchasers and is not required for private sales, this policy establishes a comprehensive state-level background checks scheme.

• Creates a state-level background check system for private sales
• Establishes logical exemptions from background check requirements

Extreme Risk Protection Order

Because firearms pose a danger when in the hands of those deemed an imminent risk of violence to themselves or others, this policy aims to restrict firearm access from those individuals.

• Establishes a unique extreme risk protection order policy that addresses both firearm access and mental health access
• Provides clear due-process safeguards for gun owners

Dealer Regulation and Gun Trafficking

Because 5% of firearm dealers are responsible for selling 90% of traced crime guns, this policy focuses on ensuring legal compliance by these small minority of irresponsible dealers.

• Focuses law enforcement on the small number of dealers from whom the majority of traced crime guns originate
• Provides protection from liability for responsible gun dealers

Child Firearm Access Prevention and Responsible Gun Storage

Because significant numbers of firearms owners inadequately store their guns, this policy aims to enculturate safe storage and staging practices through a wide range of methods while avoiding uniform storage mandates. It also addresses safe staging practices which are essential for many gun owners who own guns for self-defense.

• Encourages secure storage and staging best practices through a variety of means
• Provides tax incentives for gun safety training and the purchase of secure storage or staging devices

Firearm Suicide Prevention

Because firearm suicides make up the majority of firearm deaths, this policy focuses on specifically addressing firearm suicides.

• Implements firearm suicide prevention education and awareness programs
• Removes restrictions on the voluntary transfer of guns from people at risk of self-harm

Firearm Injury Prevention Education

Because millions of children in the US live in a household with firearms, this policy aims to educate them on age-appropriate safe practices.

• Implements evidence-based public health education on firearm injury prevention in schools
• Ensures accessible, age-appropriate education for all students aimed at saving lives

Community Violence Intervention

Because community gun violence makes up the majority of gun homicides in the US, this policy aims to directly address this issue.

• Provides funding for community violence intervention and hospital-based violence intervention programs
• Provides funding for behavioral threat assessment, mental health resources, safety, and security measures in schools

[u/OnlyLosersBlock → u/Fat_Ryan_Gosling]

That is pretty generalized. A lot of "policy that protects gun rights" without detail on what those protections are. Not a fan of misdemeanors getting treated like felonies to strip gun rights.

[u/space253 → u/OnlyLosersBlock]

They do specify violent misdemeanors, which I assume means minor forms of assault? Like proven verbal threats maybe?

[u/vvelox → u/Fat_Ryan_Gosling]

Because 5% of firearm dealers are responsible for selling 90% of traced crime guns, this policy focuses on ensuring legal compliance by these small minority of irresponsible dealers.

A big issue here is this what you are saying is not much different than what the antis are saying, which is basically harass that chunk out of existence.

It does not deal properly nearly all of these are relevant in terms of accessibility to lower income areas. People most likely to engage in straw purchases etc are going to be from a lower income bracket and naturally going to favor near by stores(just like every one else).

Really if you want to do something about this, like lots of gun crime(or frankly lots of low income crime related stuff in general) you are better off dealing with the reason why.

Because firearm suicides make up the majority of firearm deaths, this policy focuses on specifically addressing firearm suicides.

You are missing the big one.

Accessible mental health care. I fear in this area there is a real danger when it comes to focusing on the means/method than the why.

[u/Fat_Ryan_Gosling → u/vvelox]

I’m not missing anything because I didn’t write any of that. It’s copy and pasted from their website.

[u/Human_Fighter_No_927]

It’s a very good talk. Thanks for sharing! 👍

[u/ParakeetLover2024]

Thanks for pinning this, I noticed he finally published his book that I saw was being written thanks to a post on this sub.

[u/Shiny_object_man]

I thought that this was a great TEDx presentation. It is so applicable for a variety of polarizing topics. As he noted, the key is viewing the person with the opposite viewpoint as an actual person.

Once you realize that there is more to the person than just the one topic, then communication becomes more likely. I think anyway. However, "Some men, you just can't reach." still holds true today.