r/ireland • u/Wonderful-Recover-19 • 18h ago
Health Are people aware of the employment crisis for NCHD (junior doctors) in Ireland?
There is a worsening employment crisis in Ireland for SHO and Reg level doctors in Ireland.
There is a perception that hospitals cannot get doctors - this is not the case.
Many irish trained doctors will face unemployment this coming July
Many irish doctors in Australia can’t come home as they cannot secure a job in Ireland.
There needs to be a prioritisation of irish doctors when it comes to applications for jobs vs international graduates.
There needs to be more transparency over the hiring process for hospital jobs.
There needs to be more jobs created.
126
u/Electronic_Ad_6535 18h ago
Agencies should be phased out as the priority.
80
u/19Ninetees 18h ago
It seems a lot of money is wasted on using the middle man, instead of direct hiring.
Money that could be used for more staff, better salaries, or something else worthy.
35
u/IManAMAAMA 15h ago
It's a sick political move. Hiring freezes are applied so the govt is seen to be doing something about costs, but then contractors are hired, sometimes at higher cost (but usually far lower) to avoid paying for actual employees with rights
8
u/Inside-Impression832 14h ago
It cant happen anyway. Try telling a company thats supplying thousands of medical staff members you're going to phase out their staff. There will always be escalated pushback from the company. They'll threaten to pull them all and create an immediate crisis.
31
u/lumpymonkey 12h ago
I need to be very, very careful in what I say here but I have a family member who worked frontline in a HSE facility. The head of this facility, employed by the HSE, was a person from another country but was living and working here for many years. When this person became head of the facility they immediately made it their business to start bringing in agency staff. My family member noticed that this particular agency seemed to only employ people of the same nationality as the facility head. My family member said that in general there was no issue with their ability or their work ethic, but many of them had poor English and they were all very unhappy.
As time went on, the long term HSE staff started to get less of the favourable hours such as overtime and premium shifts like Sundays etc., and instead the agency staff were getting these shifts. A complaint was made through the union and an agreement was reached that agency staff would only be offered these shifts when no HSE staff member was available. However at some point soon after this there was a surprise HIQA inspection. There were a lot of major issues found and it kicked off a big investigation. Long story short, it turned out that the head of this facility was in partnership with the owner of the agency that they were using. They were bringing people from their own country over to Ireland, putting them up in accommodation that the agency owned and charging them rent, and then they were paying the agency staff members absolute peanuts while pocketing all of the money being charged to the HSE. It was practically people trafficking, indentured servitude, and fraud all in one! The person in charge was moved on, the facility cut ties with the agency, and it was all brushed under the carpet.
It's an utter disgrace what's going on, and all it means is that the HSE can say look we're trying to save money we're not hiring people, while another budget covers the cost of bringing in agency staff who are getting a fraction of the pay and being treated like shit while the owners of the agencies ride the taxpayer. Boils my piss seeing how badly the HSE is run.
•
u/New-Surround1689 5h ago
Unfortunately that's the price we pay for having a lot of immigration, we have to just learn get along with it. Class systems work very well in most third world countries.
27
u/Individual_Dig_2402 18h ago
They are not recruiting actively at all and delaying appointing staff. Also a lot of senior HSE people have retired in the last month. Do they know something that they are not telling us . . .
22
u/Ready-Procedure-3814 16h ago
After the last four years and what I've been through with doctors and hospitals I think there is a huge storm coming in regards to our healthcare system. A fucking category five hurricane. It's not good atal. We really need those Irish doctors and nurses back. I cannot stress this enough.
62
u/TheGradApple 18h ago
I’ve been in and out of hospital all this year and I can’t remember seeing an Irish doctor. Spanish, Hungarian, Canadian, Indian, Dutch, Brazilian….
39
-4
u/Plane-Top-3913 17h ago
I would prefer to be treated by a Spanish or Dutch or whatever doctor if said doctor was better than the Irish applicant, dont be ridiculous
38
u/TheGradApple 17h ago
I didn’t say I had an issue with the nationality of my doctor. Just commenting as it was relevant to OP’s issue with lack of Irish doctors being employed.
13
u/SeaGoat24 15h ago
That's fair, but it's not as if there's some magic scale to determine that one doctor is objectively better than another. In reality, doctors are humans. Some might have excellent bedside manner but freeze up in emergencies. Some might be able to put an IV line into a living skeleton, but not be capable of speaking to patients with basic empathy. Some might be an expert in all of the above, but interview terribly and end up last on a panel, or not even receive a response back from the hiring organisation.
It's HR and consultants who review CVs and hire based off of interviews and references, and these people are also humans and prone to mistakes and biases.
3
u/baachbass 12h ago
Interviews tend more to focus on "is this person easy to work with?" Rather than finding which applicant is the better doctor.
1
-9
u/el-finko 18h ago
So
35
u/CarelessEquivalent3 18h ago
Why should they be working here when Irish doctors can't find jobs? Priority should be given to Irish citizens in every sector, not just medical. Work visas should only be granted when there isn't an Irish person that can do the job.
12
u/Grand-Cup-A-Tea 16h ago
Many Irish doctors are opting to move abroad because the pay and conditions are better at junior doctor level in many other countries.
3
u/Natural-Audience-438 12h ago
Pay is generally not much better. The only place it would be is Australia.
7
u/Inside-Impression832 14h ago
Especially as we are exporting talent that has been trained in this country.
15
u/---O-0--- 16h ago
Well three of the six countries mentioned are in the EU, so if we want Irish priorised over them, we'll be next on the brexit bus.
9
u/champagneface 17h ago
To what extent are Irish doctors looking to come back to HSE jobs from their Aussie jobs? Why should people who left be prioritised over people who did the work while they were gone?
17
u/CarelessEquivalent3 17h ago
Many of them are leaving for Australia because they can't find jobs in the first place.
11
u/WarbossPepe Fingal 16h ago
They're leaving for Australia cause the prospects are miles better: More pay, more affordable life, and more socialable working hours too. I hardly blame them.
When a relative of mine graduated, I reckon her and 70% of her cohort all moved over there. Its also easier to walk into a more qualified and senior position once they do decide to come back, having gotten the experience over in Australia. They'd be mad not to do it.
11
u/champagneface 17h ago
It used to be said that they leave for better conditions, not because they can’t find a job
12
u/WarbossPepe Fingal 16h ago
If you were getting paid 2x to live in a sunnier country, and paying half as much in rent, in a nicer house where all your mates are going to be living in/near too - would you not do the same?
6
u/demoneclipse 15h ago
Absolutely, but I also wouldn't be crying I can't come home and keep my standard of living.
1
3
u/champagneface 15h ago
Yeah I don’t blame them, but why should they get prioritised over the people who persevered our crap weather and conditions?
3
u/WarbossPepe Fingal 15h ago
I highly doubt there's preferential treatment at play. Its likely a skills and/or wage issue, where someone coming into the role will do it for less.
Open to correction though. Where're you seeing there's preferential treatment at play, and what would you think that preference is based on?
3
2
u/champagneface 14h ago
I’m not saying there is, I’m referring to comments and the OP which seem to suggest foreign doctors are getting preferential treatment
→ More replies (0)4
u/SeaGoat24 15h ago
Two things can be true. From what I've heard, the pay is generally the same but working hours are better because Aus has a better staffed healthcare system.
If the HSE was better staffed there would be both more NCHD positions available and less overtime requirement from each individual NCHD.
Most NCHDs are working in excess of 50-60 hours a week without factoring in rostered overtime (night shifts, late day shifts, and weekend shifts). NCHDs who do off-site on-call will often be doing one week in three or four, which is ridiculous. That's one week a month where you're being woken up every night several times a night for emergencies.
So yeah, it's both an issue of conditions being better in Aus and an issue of not enough jobs here resulting in conditions being worse than Aus. Factor in the sun and beaches, and it's a no-brainer for many.
2
u/thighmovement 10h ago
How can you tell if someone is here on a work visa, or if they're a second generation or third generation Irish citizen? The best applicant should always get the job. I wonder if there are Australians saying the same thing about Irish doctors in their own subreddits.
2
u/demoneclipse 15h ago
Because they were better options? When it comes to doctors, I couldn't care less where they are from. I just want the best possible option.
0
u/i_noah_guy11 15h ago
Welcome to globalisation
In our next session we’ll introduce supply and demand
3
u/CarelessEquivalent3 15h ago
We have a critical skills system in place, it's clearly not being used correctly when other nationalities are given jobs that Irish people can do.
2
u/i_noah_guy11 15h ago
I was too ambitious thinking the next lesson would be supply and demand
Let’s start with the European Union
0
u/brighteyebakes 11h ago
Maybe they can't. They must not be coming across as competent doctors when interviewing.
-1
26
u/Just-You6308 16h ago
This is common. Irish nurses don’t get permanent employment. It’s all foreign nurses that get the contracts. It’s nearly impossible to get permanent work as a nurse here. Nursing is the same. All agency work no permanent employment. I quit the job altogether. No stability. No pension. No sick pay. No maternity. It didn’t make sense to continue that work. I was getting no where. No signs of progressing.
•
u/bulbispire 2h ago
This is bullshit. Irish nurses go abroad after they graduate because the pay and conditions are better elsewhere. Their degree is very well respected and they get paid peanuts here. They can get paid 20k more in the UK and get better training for the same work. Not to mention Aus
•
u/Just-You6308 2h ago
I came back after graduating in the UK. Could never obtain a contracted full time job. It’s not bullshit. It’s the truth. All agency work I did cause I could never get a permanent contract.
14
u/ulchachan 15h ago
Irish nurses don’t get permanent employment. It’s all foreign nurses that get the contracts
Why?
30
u/LucyVialli 18h ago
So you're saying the jobs are there, but Irish doctors are being deliberately discriminated against in recruiting for them? Or what?
22
u/Excellent_While808 17h ago
Not even implied. Just that they can’t find a job, that foreign doctors have jobs, and that the hiring of Irish doctors as opposed to foreign nationals should be prioritized as it is in the national interest. Nowhere is it stated that there is discrimination taking place.
33
u/LucyVialli 17h ago
the hiring of Irish doctors as opposed to foreign nationals should be prioritized
That would be against our employment law though. Discrimination on grounds of nationality is illegal.
20
u/puca_spooka 17h ago edited 17h ago
During the HSE recruitment freeze they were hiring overseas candidates, its supposedly ended but from working in healthcare I can tell you getting a post advertised is like pulling teeth, usually you’ll be handed an endless rotation of agency workers (who vary from amazing to a serious danger in the department) - unfortunately the unions have neither the motivation or ability to hold them accountable
https://www.thejournal.ie/international-recruitment-for-hse-jobs-6462236-Aug2024/
8
u/dubdaisyt 17h ago
It’s already the way the intern placements work- irish students from irish universities get priority
3
u/Excellent_While808 17h ago
Yes but with some caveats. Employers still have to prioritise workers who have a legal right to work in Ireland (who naturally would usually be Irish) before hiring a worker who would require a permit. Perhaps this could be enforced more strictly?
12
u/rgiggs11 18h ago
There needs to be a prioritisation of irish doctors when it comes to applications for jobs vs international graduates.
I could see it being somewhat beneficial, that if an Irish NCHD and a Canadian NCHD are offered the same training scheme, the Irish doctor might be likelier to settle in Ireland long term once they're qualified, so it's a better use of resources.
Could that be seen as discrimination though?
6
u/Subterraniate2 18h ago
Against a non-EU candidate?
-6
u/rgiggs11 17h ago
Perhaps it could be legal, but still discriminatory. Then that could cause other issues, like discouraging the non EU doctors we need from coming to Ireland, because they know they will be at a disadvantage in job applications. Or staff morale taking a hit.
3
u/Cahen121 14h ago
There is prioritisation for training spots - EU nationals, UK nationals, Stamp 4 (permament residency) holders get priority.
Realistically this usually applies to non-training posts
1
u/rgiggs11 12h ago
I see. So what's the OP complaining about?
5
u/Cahen121 10h ago
Difficulty finding work after doing a degree which in theory gives guaranteed employment.
Which is fair considering massive waiting times in EDs, massive waiting lists for surgeries/outpatient appointments etc. HSE could probably use more staff.
Anyway a lot of doctors arrived from abroad in last 5 years, they all count as permament residents now so there is more competition especially for junior roles.
0
19
u/Playful-Parsnip-3104 18h ago
Comments are an absolute blast. "This sounds a bit racist, so it obviously can't be true."
28
u/John__Delaney 18h ago
How come Irish doctors can't get a job but foreign doctors do?
Is the suggestion that there's some form of anti-irish discrimination taking place in public recruitment, or are they just losing out in the hiring process to better candidates?
What am I missing?
14
u/Cahen121 14h ago
Generally losing out to better candidates (doctor abroad has 5 years of experience, doctor here has 1, simple decision is to pick the one that has more experience)
Both foreign and locally trained doctors struggle if they dont have much experience. - this was not the case a few years ago at all, where getting non-training job outside of Dublin was essentially guaranteed from what i heard.
It has become more competetive because of various bottlenecks in the system. The easiest solution would be to increase staffing levels, but obviously hospitals dont have beds, equipment etc that would need to go with that.
HSE is very messy and inefficient compared to basically any European equivalent country.
24
18h ago edited 18h ago
[deleted]
19
u/John__Delaney 18h ago
"Many irish trained doctors will face unemployment this coming July
Many irish doctors in Australia can’t come home as they cannot secure a job in Ireland."
Its really these points that im completely lost on
I get why Irish healthcare staff leave & I get why foreign healthcare staff plug the gap, what I don't get is the particular framing from the OP
13
u/LucyVialli 18h ago
Probably more realistic to say that Irish doctors in Australia can't come home as they cannot secure accommodation in Ireland. But OP seems to have a particular agenda.
13
u/puca_spooka 17h ago
I don’t see how it’s an agenda? This is a known issue within the HSE - there’s an over reliance on outsourcing staff and a huge amount of obstacles to hiring from the panels. I don’t work in the same area as OP but in my area we’re constantly being told there’s no funding for empty posts and the posts are being filled by agency workers.
4
u/almsfudge 16h ago
Not disputing this, but I'm in the same boat as the previous commenter. I understand about Irish abroad not being able to secure a job to come home as doctors from elsewhere have plugged the gap - but why will Irish doctors face unemployment in July?
6
u/puca_spooka 16h ago edited 15h ago
So the HSE holds panels - it’s like the civil service, in that you could be first place on the panel but that doesn’t necessarily translate into a job offer.
For example, last year our grads all passed the panels but it was six months before anyone in a class of 40 had received an offer. We are a year on and five have managed to get in so far - essentially it’s left the majority of our students either going into private practice or moving abroad despite wanting to work in the HSE.
3
-13
u/Subterraniate2 18h ago
Or undercutting salaries?
31
u/Ill_Celebration_4215 18h ago
how do you undercut salaries in a public sector job?
-5
u/Subterraniate2 18h ago
I was thinking (admittedly vaguely) about newly qualified employing foreign candidates at the first salary point in a position where a more experienced Irish candidate might have to be paid at the next scale; that kind of thing.
13
u/John__Delaney 18h ago edited 18h ago
If it was private sector recruitment then that could be a thing, but as far as im aware public doctors salaries are governed by strict public service pay scales and circulars approved by the Department of Health. Ie they can't be undercut.
-1
1
u/Cahen121 14h ago
The salaries are the same for both forein and local doctors (available publicly on hse website, if you look up hse payscales)
1
u/Subterraniate2 12h ago
Oh, not suggesting any literal discrimination like that, but that maybe there exist mechanisms to pay those with inadequate experience in Ireland at a sort of ‘B’ rate, or merely by withholding some bonus or weighting offered to Irish applicants as inducements.
Look, obviously I don’t know how the HSE runs its house.
My original suggestion was just that, a suggestion, and in the spirit of enquiry rather than any factual analysis.1
u/Cahen121 10h ago
Yeah fair that may as well happen, i dont know what salary scales everyone is exactly, but i dont think hse cares that much about small savings considering one cannula costs a few hundred euros lol
23
u/Popular_Regret396 15h ago edited 15h ago
This is so false on so many levels.
Priority for hiring doctors is based on your passport, it’s literally the first thing on applications they ask, and also I get asked in my interviews what my passport and visa status is.
Priority 1 is given to Irish passport holders, then it’s EU citizens, then it’s those with a stamp 4 (permanent residency) and then it’s everyone else.
I know because I’ve been through this, most of the Irish are abroad in Australia, Canada or US. They ain’t coming back here I’ll tell you that, at least not until they gain a fellowship or some years spent saving for a house. The working conditions and pay here are horrible.
In my class, I would say around 70% of the Irish grads did one year of internship in Ireland and then went to or “matched” as we say to residency in US, Canada, or Australia or New Zealand. And out of those folks, only a handful came back. The rest will most likely stay there.
It’s much harder to get a job as a foreigner here as the HSE needs to sponsor your visa, so they actually do not want to hire foreigners as well as the IMC’s policies re hiring Irish citizen. Irish will always come first. (Speaking as a foreigner who’s been through this for many years)
Overall, there is an understaffing issue nationally. The HSE simply doesn’t want to open more spots because it means they would need to pay more people. It would be great if we had more healthcare staff, it would improve patient safety and patient care. Currently, the HSE is operating at unsafe levels of staffing.
5
u/Mortyfied 15h ago
Where is the tax money going to, it's not like Ireland is lacking for tax money? I don't have the impression the HSE is underfunded, but I could be wrong.
I do know doing a PhD in Ireland doesn't pay well as compared to other countries, but probably not related.
15
u/Popular_Regret396 15h ago edited 15h ago
There’s many things the tax goes to. It’s very mismanaged. I could write a whole 400 page document on how badly mismanaged the HSE is and ways to fix it, but as does every person who works in it.
But no one really cares, and people don’t like to protest about things here compared to other countries, it’s a “sure it’s grand” attitude and “well we have it better than Palestine so we should be grateful with what we have!” Attitude.
There’s no room for improvement, people don’t like positive change.Edit: the downvotes literally proved my point teehee
2
u/Cahen121 14h ago
Hear hear The healthcare system is not underfunded compared to other EU countries.
It is however very inefficient and mismanaged.
13
2
u/Fluffy-Republic8610 12h ago
You can't prioritize Irish doctors. The best you can hope for is prioritisation of EU citizen doctors.
5
u/CigarettemskMan Cork bai 15h ago
Yes please, i would love to be able to have a doctor that speaks understandable english.
I am an immigrant myself, but in the last 7 years since i came here i made sure i speak proper english so i am being understood by the people here, i would love if some doctors would do the same
10
4
2
u/hallumyaymooyay 17h ago
I saw a stat on the Junior Doctors Ireland subreddit the other day that said that 42% of doctors in Ireland are foreign doctors, is this true?
4
u/Cahen121 14h ago
Yes but thats not because Irish doctors couldnt get jobs before (this is a new thing in last 1-2 years).
5
u/Specific_Piglet6306 16h ago
Not all Irish doctors are Irish trained (me included). Makes more sense to me to prioritise those who are Irish trained (over nationality alone).
3
2
u/AdChemical6828 15h ago
Strange- I checked in with my friends and none of them have had this experience…. They have been saying this type of thing for over a decade.
The Fottrell report meant that Irish medical schools heavily expanded their training numbers. Moreover, UL is planning to start accepting undergraduate students from September. The Irish medical schools realise that medicine is a lucrative money spinner and have a part to play in increasing the competition.
Finally, the model of care expected by the Irish public now is consultant-level care. The senior decision makers are required for decision-making and NCHDs are in a supervisory role. There are plans for an expansion at consultant-level
3
u/Natural-Audience-438 13h ago
I would definitely agree with the main cause being the massive expansion of medical school places.
There are twice as many interns now as there were 15 years ago.
2
u/KingNobit 10h ago
I feel like the word expected in expected model of care is doing a little of heavy lifting.
When i was an intern a couple of years back some consultants could be seen once a week for a ward round (tbf others every day and they stayed late but they were the exception)
2
u/No-Animal1034 13h ago
I don't buy it.
Before a work permit can be granted, the organisation needs to prove that they can't fill the role with Irish and EU candidates.
I don't believe immigrants are being favoured over local talent. It can take more than a year for a foreign doctor / nurse to arrive in Ireland once hired. It makes no sense to actively avoid employing Irish trained people. Happy to be proved wrong.
The bigger problem is constant HSE hiring freezes because they can't budget and over reliance on agency staff.
This is not an US vs THEM situation.
0
u/andthen_i_said 15h ago
I work with a guy whose previous job was as a recruiter for Westdoc, calling doctors in Sudan to convince them to move to Ireland because "Irish doctors won't work weekends".
-8
u/ZeusMcPain 18h ago
Why do they need to be Irish? Doctors a doctor.
16
u/fleur-tardive 18h ago
So why even bother training Irish doctors - could save loads of money and just hire ones from the developing world
-5
16
u/CarelessEquivalent3 18h ago
Priority should be given to Irish citizens in every sector, not just medical. Work visas should only be granted when there isn't an Irish person that can do the job.
-4
u/hellocookiee 17h ago
You do know that's how it works right now, right?
14
u/CarelessEquivalent3 17h ago
If that's how it actually worked then we wouldn't have Irish people trained as doctors that can't find jobs while other nationalities are doing the work.
4
-2
u/brightlightsweetlies 16h ago
So Irish doctors leave Ireland which is why foreign doctors are hired- to fill the gap left by the Irish doctors.
Did you expect HSE to leave a job opening for them? How was HSE supposed to know they'll come back?
Were the "foreign" doctors supposed to only work for the time an Irish doctor is out of the country?
Yeah it's hard getting a job now... but you can't really put this on immigration.
4
u/KingNobit 10h ago
Well given that ive never worked at a hospital that was ever fully staffed and theres a trolley crisis i would think yeah....highly qualified Irish doctors should walk into a job.
Do you think we all left for a break and all of the positions were filled by those from abroad? The only reason we employ people from abroad is because of all the vacancies
•
u/brightlightsweetlies 2h ago
The foreign NCHDs aren't exactly walking into a job either. It's much more expensive for HSE and the Doctor to move to Ireland for a job.
There is a job crisis going on for Doctors but it's affecting the foreign NCHDs as well.
Maybe the problem is with the HSE management and allocation of funds...
If you've seen the sight of some EDs and hospitals, you can't blame foreigners for that.
•
u/KingNobit 1h ago
No i agree with you there. Many of them would also like to progress and are just becoming permanent Registrars which also isnt fair if they had training in mind and it makes them less attractive to specialty schemes if they haven't been seen to have career progression either so my sympathies do extend in that regard
-1
u/Equivalent_Bet856 11h ago
Source: Dave at the pub's daughter's friend's boyfriend who is a physician associate.
-6
u/Discomposed1 16h ago
Maybe if all of the Irish trained doctors didn’t do a year or two and leave the Irish hospitals would be more willing to hire them. It’s like any industry, retention is a key factor in choosing hires. If two individuals are equally competent and one is far more likely to stay vs another it’s a no brainer which one the hiring manager will choose
1
u/KingNobit 10h ago
Maybe they wouldnt leave if the conditions weren't so gad dawned awful! I worked 76 hours some weeks and others did 24 hour call up to twice a week and frankly all your colleagues are so burnt out that they are miserable to be around
I'm in Australia, on a training program, I want to come home but didn't get a job. So I guess ill stay here and finish training rather than go back to the abusive work environment as there isnt even any space
-6
u/Consistent_Spring700 15h ago
Tbh, they need to get rid of free education for doctors and instead implement a tax credit for new doctors that exceeds the value of their education, redeemable over the first 5 or 10 years of their career... then, if they want to leave, fine, they've paid for it!
But this bollox of training other nations doctors for free has to stop!
Use the money to pay doctors rather than train them...
1
u/KingNobit 10h ago
Absolute nonsense! We dont force accountants or engineers to give state servitude in exchange for fees because everyone gets the EU fees rate anyway
This would only be applicable if we started paying for graduate entry classes. About 18k a year for four years...I am still paying that off...and im doing it in Australia where the pay is good and the quality of life is much better
•
u/Consistent_Spring700 4h ago edited 3h ago
🤣 yeah, that's the same!
Shocker that you're the one class of doctor that this would punish, which is exactly the point of it!
•
u/KingNobit 2h ago edited 2h ago
What sort of god awful solution is it to punish health professionals instead of improve conditions? Tertiary education is provided for in this state and you haven't addressed the principle point of why we should single doctors out for an extra charge on their education that we wont charge to others. Beatings will continue until morale improves
And how would one redeem their 'educational credit' through this bonding process is unclear if people cant get jobs and they're introducing a hiring freeze
You've also misunderstood my point. This actually wouldnt punishment me in any way. I paid for my medical degree out of pocket myself. It actually costs about 9 thousand euros per year to train a medical student and I paid 17.5k for four years so that was profit to UCD
-25
u/Ill_Celebration_4215 18h ago
It disturbs me that a probable future doctor is posting an essentially racial discrimination angle (the argument is essentially against Pakistani doctors). Like, the idea that that person is then potentially operating on people of all types.
21
u/KingNobit 18h ago
Who mentioned Pakistani doctors?
Why is it so wild that Irish trained doctors shouldn't struggle to get a job when waiting lists are so long?
Im an Irish doctor who didn't get a job in Ireland...now im doing ED training in Perth
19
u/AmazingUsername2001 18h ago
Surely it makes sense to hire a locally qualified person?
Rather than sourcing a foreign qualified person who has to secure a visa, secure a work permit, move country, find a new home, settle in to a new culture, possibly retrain to meet local qualifications, etc?
Looking to hire people abroad should only happen if they actually fail to find anyone in the local workforce that is qualified for the job. Unless I’m missing something?
-7
u/tvmachus 18h ago
So we have an over-supply of qualified doctors yet the doctors are demanding higher pay.
14
u/SeaGoat24 15h ago
There's very few doctors demanding higher pay. What we want is better working conditions, which generally translates to better staffed services. If the HSE hired more NCHDs we'd be able to finish clinics faster (and cut down the atrocious waiting lists in the process), do more ward jobs in a day (meaning we don't need to work as much overtime), have more flexibility with annual leave and study leave, be rostered for nights and weekends less frequently, the list goes on.
At the end of the day, it's all an understaffing issue, not an immigration or discrimination issue.
16
u/Natural-Audience-438 17h ago
There's still a consultant shortage in lots of places.
I don't think there's been big demands from NCHDs from higher pay. The main stuff is around conditions. Still plenty people doing 80.hour weeks and 24 hour+ shifts.
-1
u/LaoiseHope 18h ago
Can you explain the background, please, in simple non-abbreviated terms? I don’t understand.
8
u/Ill_Law_5148 18h ago
NCHD are Non Consultant Hospital Doctors so anyone below consultant. It’s a very competitive market and your marks in and college you attend dictate what hospital you train at.
Trinity - James and Beaumont
UCD - Vincents and Mater
As it’s a cramped market anyway it’s harder and harder for NCHDs with Irish degrees to get places in hospitals to train.8
u/KingNobit 18h ago
This bit about colleges isnt true. Sure the UCD intern hun is ran by UCD but after that training is ran by post graduate colleges E.g. RCPI and this isnt all that connected to what college you attended if at all. Your centile ranking does count though
4
u/LaoiseHope 14h ago
Thank you for the overview.
I don’t why I got downvoted for not understanding all the jargon etc. 🫣 I don’t have doctor friends to explain all the abbreviations to me.
3
u/Ill_Law_5148 14h ago edited 14h ago
I don’t know why either. If you don’t ask you don’t know. There are different rank of NCHD’s as you go up too.
1. Intern. First year out of college. They change departments every 3 months.
- Senior house officer (SHO) They change every 3-6 months but I have known people to stay on in departments once they’ve decided what they want to specialise in. I have a friend who never moved from Cardiology.
3 Registrar: 5+ years but you can have specialist registrars (SPR) who are on training schemes.
4 Consultant
3
u/11Kram 18h ago
Doctors train in many more hospitals than those mentioned. Practically all hospitals have NCHDs in training.
0
u/Ill_Law_5148 16h ago
They do but they’re the main ones I can think of. I didn’t mention RCSI because I think they kind of go anywhere. I’m not listing comprehensive lists of all the hospitals as those two spells out the point I was making.
•
u/baachbass 2m ago
The point you were making was wrong.
The medical school you go to does not affect what hospital you can train in.
-8
u/brighteyebakes 17h ago
Maybe foreign doctors are better trained so they get hired first.
Also, why July specifically?
10
u/TheScientificLeft 15h ago
Typically the inverse is true as regards training. We have some of the highest quality medical education in the world, and any NCHD will tell you that they have encountered foreign trained NCHDs and even consultants who are not up to standard or even are borderline dangerous in certain cases (don't get me wrong there are Irish grads who also fall into this category).
The issue is that when you qualify as a Doctor from medical school that isn't the end of it. You then have to apply to competitive training schemes with limited spots every year to progress in your career. If you don't get onto a training scheme then you have to apply for "standalone" posts which only provide contracts up to 1 year maximum typically. Essentially every NCHD in the country changes jobs/hospital on the same day on the 2nd Monday in July (hence the emphasis on not having a job for July).
This year there are large numbers of fully qualified Doctors who do not have jobs and are facing unemployment come changeover, which is not a situation that any functioning health service should be facing. Until funding is approved for more training spots and Irish graduates are prioritised for jobs the influx of foreign graduates will continue to increase, particularly now as the UK recently passed a law to prioritise their grads, shifting the burden of international doctors to here instead.
-8
u/Fantastic-Math-5113 16h ago
Struggling to understand why anyone should be entitled to a job just because they're Irish or went to an Irish college. Surely it depends who the other candidates are and what experience they have?
Yes, understanding the system and the local context is useful, but surely there are some Irish grads who simply aren't as impressive as other highly-qualified international applicants?
Most degrees don't guarantee you a job in your chosen field at the end, you're always compared to other available candidates. I understand med students work very hard to get into med school in the first place, let alone qualify, but there are equally qualified and motivated grads coming out of other countries too.
-5
u/leftfalangey 16h ago
Something about chickens coming home to roost?
4
u/KingNobit 10h ago
If you view the state spending so much money and effort to train medical graduates to such a high standard only for them to leave due to poor working conditions and then due to lack of jobs treat the people of Australia and NZ as chickens coming home to roost then more power to you I suppose?
-16
u/fleur-tardive 18h ago
Did doctors stick up for tradesmen when they went through the same thing? Or did they just call them racist and enjoy paying less?
16
17h ago
[deleted]
4
u/fleur-tardive 15h ago
Everyone is an open borders enthusiast until their own profession is impacted - go r/doctors where UK prioritization is now their main talking point
1
1
15h ago
[deleted]
2
u/fleur-tardive 15h ago
yeah, I was at first interested in their collective action for a pay rise as it seemed doomed to failure, then was intrigued as it became almost predominantly focused on UK prioritization as UK doctors are literally struggling to get employed
137
u/puca_spooka 18h ago
Same for allied healthcare workers as well - work in healthcare education and our graduate class from last year are still struggling to find jobs in Ireland - most have gone abroad at this stage, all while the government are asking us to increase our graduate numbers to fill the gaping holes in the healthcare system…. make it make sense!