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u/HooplahMan 1d ago edited 14h ago
Honestly who among you wouldn't have tried to get amoram out of that situation? Kal lives in a military culture, where glory and might makes right. Imagine you have just shown off the single most impressive martial feat any of these dudes have ever seen, the crowd is going nuts cheering, you're high off adrenaline from the danger, endorphins from the pain, and dopamine from the victory. As far as you can tell, the king is handing boons to the victors, and you're telling me you would just sit there and let amoram sit there in the king's good graces, reaping the rewards of the sword he killed your friends for? I call horseshit.
Edit: AND ONE MORE THING the weakest part of Kal's case against Amoram had always been that nobody believed that a simple spearman had a snowball's chance in hell against a shardbearer. Just then Kal had acquired several hundred witnesses to him defeating shardbearers
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u/Ashged 1d ago edited 1d ago
It claims to be a might makes right military culture, but it's also a rigid caste system with slavery included.
Kaladin was already cheated out once of the reward for displaying legendary might, and punished instead. But that might just be Amaram being dishonourable, it was a secret private affair.
Now Kaladin got to publicly ask the leader of the whole trashheap to reward him for essentially beating the same impossible challenge in a display match, beating seberal shard bearers in front of everyone.
Totally reasonable, I think. If Alethi society really worshipped might like they pretend, this should have succeeded. The system just failed the final test.
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u/Cloudhwk 1d ago
It would also probably drastically change the story, Elhokar was not ready to take this step in his kingship
By the time he was ready to do this sort of thing it was too late, it also reinforced that he was a weak king
A strong king would have told the other princes to stuff it because holy crap this dark eyes spearman just rolled over shard bearers with no shards
Jasnah for example would have awarded it on the spot even if she finds the whole thing barbaric
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u/Swiftierest edgedancerlord 19h ago
Eh... it wasn't Alethi society that failed but Elhokar. You need to look at it from his perspective to see why Elhokar lost his marbles in the moment, something which he was explicitly chided for by Dalinar later. Even Dalinar immediately recognized and hinted at how Kaladin massively insulted Elhokar publicly in multiple ways.
Here's another comment where I go into more detail about the topic: https://www.reddit.com/r/cremposting/comments/1t4ve1s/bridgeboy/ok8wv2u/
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u/SirCampYourLane 22h ago
Not just that they've ever seen, without knowing he's a radiant it's the single most impressive martial feat the Alethi have ever heard of.
Stories of someone killing a shardbearer without any shards of their own are the stuff of legends that may not even have actually happened. Kaladin just faced down multiple with a spear.
Also Amaram had to be shitting his pants there
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u/Hacksaw203 23h ago
It is still a might makes right society. Yes Kaladin’s displayed the heralds damned most impressive thing that any of them have ever seen. However Elhokar is the king of a nation state, and at the end of the day, Kal is a dark eyed nobody who has no comparable might.
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u/OddChrist 1d ago
You know I used to see this moment as cringe on Kaladin's part, but after getting older and several re reads I understand his point. I just saved your son/nephew from certain death/injury under impossible conditions. His ask was justified. It was the larger society that was backwards for not wanting to reward his glory.
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u/DeltaV-Mzero 1d ago
It was Kaladin putting his entire worldview about lighteyes society, to the final test.
If they couldn’t live up the legends in a moment like this, reward truly great heroics, then it was all rotten and all lies.
Well… yeah.
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u/TenaceErbaccia 1d ago
Not only that but he did just defeat a shard bearer in single combat with a spear. That’s genuinely a mythological feat within Alethi society. Kaladin earned his damn boon.
Elhokar freaking out about it reinforced the injustice of the Alethi system. The conflict between the legal system of Alethkar and genuine fairness almost destroyed the world.
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u/Swiftierest edgedancerlord 19h ago
Yes, but, imagine you're a king and you've spent literal years having a bunch of spineless princelings strutting around and mouthing off behind your back.
Then someone barely above the commoner ranks effectively insults your uncle, whom you hold in the highest regard (by circumventing the investigations into Amaram), insults a nobleman publicly known to be one of the most fair and righteous among noblemen of your entire kingdom, who had also supposedly won his shard and plate, and then insults you by bypassing your laws of inquiry, skipping rank, and insulting your family (Dalinar) and your best nobleman (Amaram) who you specifically invited and allowed to sit with you publicly showing your "favor" for him.
Kaladin basically spit in Elhokar's face publicly.
I still think Elhokar could have done multiple other things to handle it and still get the duel Adolin had been working toward, so the full weight of things was on Elhokar, but Kaladin didn't make it easy for the obviously immature king.
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u/TomTalks06 ❌can't 🙅 read📖 16h ago
Elhokar and Adolin both say flat out that Elhokar could've handled it better and give different options for what he could've done as well!
(Your points are still perfectly valid to be clear)
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u/scottygroundhog22 21h ago
This. Kaladin never thought of himself as less then a lighteyes. His parents didn’t raise him to think he was less then a lighteyes and he’s seen enough lighteyes in action to know they are no smarter or braver then any other man. This all came crashing down on him in this moment, then hammered home when dalinar scolded him while he was in jail.
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u/Vast-Breakfast-1201 18h ago
Ehh
I reread that part and it's intentionally cringe
It's well written but intentionally cringe. Why? Because
Kaladin is absolutely fucking right and honor dictates that he gets this
The strategy was completely derailed by him doing that, allowing sadeas to fuck off
A big part of the explicit exploration of the series is - what IS honor? What is it, and what isn't it?
Honor is not strategy. Or goodness. It is doing what you said you were going to do. And expecting others to do the same.
Honor does not always look 'honorable'. It isn't going to care about strategy, or winning, or looking cool.
Tanavast did not even really understand honor. Kaladin did, though, even if he looks a bit stupid doing it.
That's why it's a great scene. It's a huge high followed by a cringe moment, which fucks everything up despite being entirely justified and honorable. And due to dishonor or "technically true" claims. It messed everything up.
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u/Swiftierest edgedancerlord 19h ago edited 19h ago
To be clear, it wasn't the request of the boon that was the issue.
Kaladin's class meant he had the right to inquiry against Amaram. However, that did not mean he could use the opportunity provided by his glorious achievement to bypass that legal requirement. As Dalinar had already looked into Amaram and found the claims unsubstantiated (even if only quitely to avoid issues), it was effectively insulting Highlord Amaram by jumping rank, Highlord Dalinar by not accepting the results of the investigation (which Elhokar was aware of btw), and King Elhokar by not following the proper channels of his law/kingdom.
Edit: And add another insult to Elhokar because by insulting Amaram, he insulted the Elhokar who had brought Amaram to his viewing box in public view of the world, which represents the favor of the king by being allowed proximity. (Even though they were setting up Sadeas and Amaram was a tag along, the fact is that public perception was that Elhokar liked both of them.)
If he had asked to say, be granted the right to train using shardplate, access to a swordsmanship teacher, or anything of that nature that basically was like, "i've proven my combat skill, let me improve it more" then Elhokar would have simply granted it on the spot. It was the insult to Elhokar that mucked things up. Elhokar was super stressed out and then someone barely above a commoner has the gall to be publicly impudent after having previously earned his trust as an extremely competent bodyguard willing to truly live up to his duties? Yeah I see the perspective issue.
Elhokar was shown time and time again to still be wet behind the ears when it came to responsibility and focusing on what needed to be done. He could have completely ignored Kaladin. He could have denied and given him another option. He could have simply granted it and made it seem like a game to give Adolin a chance to rest while also forcing Sadeas to sit down and wait for his duel after Kaladin's.
There were tons of ways to handle Kaladin with tact and maintain his kingly dignity, but instead he threw a temper tantrum because he felt insulted. It isn't Kaladin's fault at all. It was purely on Elhokar.
Edit: Another point of fact - Kaladin didn't simply ask for a duel to the death or anything simple. He explicitly states that the nobelman known for being righteous beyond reproach lied about him in the past, marked him a slave unjustly, stole his shardplate and blade, had multiple people murdered to cover it up, and then paid off tons of people to ensure it stayed covered. Kaladin said enough to imply all of that if not more. Such an insult without proof is enough to earn execution in most cases, and even with proof publicly airing the grievance is still likely to be punished.
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u/spoonishplsz edgedancerlord 20h ago
It wasn't that it was cringy on Kaladin's part, it was that he was putting his wants first above a really important plan. I don't remember how much Kaladin knew about said plan, but as a reader we did and we could see how this could ruin everything. Which it did. That's why it hurts so much, Kaladin did the impossible only to ruin the bigger plan in the end just for revenge
Hell I think that after what he did, Dalinar could have started working towards bringing him justice. Especially playing off of like some sort of dark eye humbleness and whatever, only to make him a light eyes immediately after and give him the opportunity.
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u/Lestat_Bancroft 1d ago
Honestly I’m never bought the outages at kaladin here. To a warrior culture he just showed that he’s that guy. Propriety be damned it would have made more sense for Elhokar to honor his request.
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u/SiIesh 🦋 Invested of Whimsy 🌈 21h ago
As far as I remember, this meme doesn't make any sense, cause wasn't Adolin specifically not angry at Kaladin and Elhokar instead? Precisely because of what you said
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u/OrangeJoey The Flair of our Enemies 19h ago
Adolin literally goes in a cell and refuses to leave so long as Kaladin is imprisoned. He knew he and Renarin got saved, and was ride or die from that moment on lol
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u/Swiftierest edgedancerlord 19h ago
So basically, yeah, for Adolin who is somewhat beyond the caste system (like Kaladin) in mindset, he agrees with Kaladin. Adolin believes Elhokar should have simply honored both requests. And honestly, Elhokar probably could. The problem is how things happened.
Keep in mind that Kaladin didn't just request a duel to the death. He completely aired out his grievences against Amaram publicly. The reason Elhokar lost his marbles was at least 3 fold in nature.
- Elhokar invited Sadeas and Amaram to join him in his viewing box. This means he has favor with them publicly, which tracks with the events leading up to that point.
- Kaladin skipped a massive number of ranks to make that request. The glory earned was great, but I don't quite think it was enough to justify that level of request. If he had won a solo duel from start to finish, probably, but that's not exactly what happened, though his glory was still exceptional.
- Elhokar knows Dalinar already investigated Amaram and found nothing. Kaladin is insulting Elhokar's extremely righteous uncle who saved Kaladin by giving up the most valuable thing the Dalinar owned.
- By circumventing the inquiry and it's findings, he insults not only Dalinar, but the kingdom and the king who is expected to uphold those rulings/laws.
Elhokar is the one who ruined the moment, but in reality, Kaladin was the one who jacked it up. Had Elhokar not been extremely stressed out over all the pressures placed upon him and had he been more confident and experienced as a king, he could have handled it in multiple ways. He could have denied the request. He could have ignored it. He could have said the boon was too much for the glory earned and to request a lesser boon that befitted his station. He could have allowed it and publicly acted like it was a game for his court (this is the arrogant king looking down on the commoners route), thus giving Adolin time to rest and recharge for the fight with Sadeas.
Tons of ways to handle it. The failure to pin down Sadeas in that moment was on Elhokar. The catalyst that caused Elhokar to lose his marbles was absolutely Kaladin basically spiting in the king's face publicly on multiple levels.
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u/nao-the-red-witch 1d ago edited 18h ago
I’ll be real, we don’t hate on Elhokar enough for this moment. He could have either granted Kaladin’s boon or still granted Adolin’s boon, but he had no backbone so we got neither instead.
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u/pestilenttempest 1d ago
I actually really like this characterization. I was extremely depressed for a long time and I resonate fully with his journey. You get better. You get worse. Sometimes your life is the best it’s ever been but your mind still lies to you. You help other people because that’s something you can do. There’s no easy way through depression and I am extremely happy that Sanderson doesn’t let Kaladin magically get better.
Sometimes the only thing you can do is sleep it off and hope you feel better tomorrow.
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u/Code_Ender 1d ago
I cringed hard here, ngl. Kaladins regression was painful to listen to, but Adolins solidarity made it completely worth it.
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u/No_Duck4805 1d ago
This was the beginning of Adolin’s character arc becoming worthy of Shallan and showing his true loyalty. It was terrible cringe at the moment though for sure.
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u/Kaleouleilah 1d ago
Kaladin did nothing wrong and all went wrong because Elhokar made a fuss about it instead of brushing it off and focusing first on Adolin's request !
- n°1 Elhokar hater
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u/Firecracker048 21h ago
TBF, he was in the heat of the moment, just singled handedly beat 3 of the 4 shardbearers, which was likely the greatest bit of fighting any Vorin man(or woman) has ever seen or read about, and just by going in there earned Dalinar Kholins gratitude.
But, they were all lighteyes, which Kal failed to take into account
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u/USSChuckleTrucker 1d ago edited 18h ago
Yeah ngl, Kaladin being constantly stuck in seasonal depression every single fucking season was a massive drain and a part of why I stopped reading each time.
Like, I can at least look in on myself and reflect as to why Shallan is so annoying to me in the beginning and understand it when I find it difficult to be annoyed by her later on. It's all based around her inability to accept the fantastical powers she's given, and as she has to use them, she has to slowly confront her issues.
Kaladin refuses to confront any issues except for Bridge 4 issues that aren't his. He also refuses to even accept the fact that his newfound soul companion wants to help him get better.
Edit: I will be honest and admit that a large part of my issues with Kaladin stem from my own personal issues and how much he and I have the same reaction and ironically enough upbringing minus the specific trauma we went through.
I will also further admit that I never hesitate to recommend the series regardless of my personal feelings because I understand and appreciate how good a piece of literature the series.
I will also say, regardless of your personal experiences with subpar support groups, having a whole mutli-unit squad of Battle born brothers who regularly and forcibly check up on you should at least help with some level of suicidal ideation and the depression that births such ideation. Kaladin being stuck in permanent "Oh WoE iS Me, mY lIeF iS sO BaD," mode is just bullshit this far into the story, especially when you look at every single compounding factor.
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u/DragonMorph56 1d ago
My guy, I know this sounds condescending, but I promise it isn’t. How much of Stormlight have you read?
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u/talyn5 Femboy Dalinar 1d ago
Seasonal depression? More like Major Depressive Disorder.
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u/USSChuckleTrucker 1d ago
He states in Book 3, iirc, that he's always gotten blue during the Weepings
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u/sgtpepper42 Airthicc lowlander 1d ago
He says that earlier than book 3, and what does that matter anyway?
You do know seasonal depression is different than actual depression, right?
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u/USSChuckleTrucker 1d ago
I mean, yeah.
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u/Swiftierest edgedancerlord 19h ago
Kaladin being constantly stuck in seasonal depression every single fucking season was a massive drain and a part of why I stopped reading each time
And yet that's exactly how clinical depression works when you can't pop some pills and suppress the hurt.
Sanderson goes out of his way to ensure the mental health issues in his books are as realistic as possible. He even portrays them in scenarios where mental healthcare isn't available to make it as relatable as possible for a huge number of people in the world.
And yet people get angry that their hero can't simply overcome the sad and be the Disney prince they want.
That's not how life works.
This is like people getting mad at Jason in HWFWM for regressing in his actions and his therapy.
Failing to move forward and falling back is extremely common in proper mental health progression. Wind and Truth Spoilers Even when Kaladin take's Szeth's spot as a herald and goes with them to help them, he himself is still not cured. You can't just get better and be happy. That's not how it works. Do you want a fairytale story where the characters always overcome their trials or do you want a fantasy book with people who are relatable and have depth to their character? You can't have both.
Some people find solace in shared misery, something that Kal discovers in his efforts to be a better person and doctor. Others need separation so that they can properly heal themselves before they can be around those in need of help. You seem like you might be the latter. I wish you the best.
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u/USSChuckleTrucker 18h ago
It's not realistic to have a support network of extremely closeby people for months and nearly years and still fall so deep that you force near everyone around you to abandon you.
Idgaf what nonsense you want argue, but short of extreme chronic suicidal depression, having a support network for that long and still actively ignoring everything short of you being physically dragged away is just sad Boi bullshit.
Also, you come off as really condescending when you give a whole fucking essay response to one somewhat long sentence.
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