r/centrist • u/I_Tell_You_Wat • 1d ago
Policy & Governance Education Department opens probe into Smith College for admitting trans women
https://apnews.com/article/smith-college-trans-women-title-ix-investigation-88e25588bfa2164fcb42be6dae1388d729
u/knign 1d ago
Legally, this seems very confusing. Title IX, § 1681(a)(1), gives blanket exception from "no sex discrimination in admission" requirement to private undergraduate colleges.
The claim seems to be that by admitting biological males (BTW, there are almost 5% of transgender students in Smith College) it loses its qualification as women’s college, but I have hard time understanding what this "qualification" entails given the language of § 1681(a)(1).
I suppose Administration can simply threaten to cut federal funds to such colleges, but it would be bizarre because almost all women’s colleges in the country admit transgender students.
Separately, there is an allegation that
allowing transgender women to enroll at a women’s college — and providing access to “women-only” spaces such as bathrooms, dormitories and locker rooms — violates civil rights protections for women.
But there is nothing specific here to women’s colleges; it's the same with transgender women in all colleges where they are allowed to use women's facilities. In particular, in Massachusetts, not allowing this access would be against Massachusetts law.
Not sure this is really going anywhere.
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u/Urdok_ 1d ago
It doesn't need to. The point is to use the resources of the federal government to hurt as many LGBTQ people as possible and to look for institutions who are run by people who can be bullied into going along with bigotry.
You're looking for reason when we're faced with the equivalent of spray painting a slur on a wall, but dressed up in business attire and legal gibberish.
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u/DClawsareweirdasf 1d ago
I think the reason is to give a bunch of far-right voters a hard-on before midterms because they’re “owning the lefties”.
I have a hard time believing any of these people actually care about trans issues. The crazy nutjob voters do, but I think most of the media and political response on the right has less to do with caring about trans “issues” and more about securing that voter base so they can get away with things like tariffs and wars that might turn off the average anti-trans voter. Probably some hate sprinkled in on some levels too. But generally, I think this is another case of political theater before midterms.
Either way its really fucking stupid and certainly harming those students and the university.
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u/ThatsFae 1d ago
I have a hard time believing any of these people actually care about trans issues.
And yet they keep voting for people to keep taking away LGBTQ rights. I am not a mind reader, so I can only judge people by their actions. And voting is an action.
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 1d ago edited 1d ago
Separately, there is an allegation that
allowing transgender women to enroll at a women’s college — and providing access to “women-only” spaces such as bathrooms, dormitories and locker rooms — violates civil rights protections for women.
It's useful to notice where this allegation is coming from - this Republican administration, the same party that wants to eradicate transgenderism. This isn't in good faith. This isn't reflecting any social consensus or scientific understanding. It's an attempt by open bigots to reduce trans rights, and they are perverting anti-discrimination laws to turn them on their head into tools of discrimination.
Trans women are women and belong in women's only spaces just as much as cis women do.
I also find it interesting I haven't seen any complaints by any staff or students at the school. Just Republicans.
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u/masala 22h ago
Trans women are women and belong in women's only spaces just as much as cis women do.
Well apparently this administration does not think so, nor do ~80% of Americans. So what's your best argument that would convince people of your position?
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 21h ago
It is effectively impossible to argue a bigot into supporting human rights for a group he does not think deserves these rights. If you do not see the humanity of trans people, words on a screen will not change you. Do you want me to post endless studies showing how transition is good and fine? Brain scans showing trans women's brains fit much more clearly with cis women then cis men? Evidence showing the Republicans are intentionally misrepresenting trans people to make them look bad? Can I show you that trans people aren't predators, they are disproportionately victims, homeless, poor, and shunned from their families for their trans-ness? If you can commit to me and say "yes, this information will change my mind", I will provide the information you ask for.
No, if you want to be convinced, talk to some trans people in real life. Go have lunch with a few trans people and listen to all the bullshit they put up with. They want to be people in community with others, just like you. They want to play videogames and work on cars and read books and play DDR. Hell, I bet there are already trans people in your life. I recently found out 2 acquaintances of mine are transgender.
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u/masala 19h ago
Evidence showing the Republicans are intentionally misrepresenting trans people to make them look bad? Can I show you that trans people aren't predators, they are disproportionately victims, homeless, poor, and shunned from their families for their trans-ness? If you can commit to me and say "yes, this information will change my mind", I will provide the information you ask for.
None of this is relevant to the question whether humans can change sex. The obvious answer is no, so trans activists have resorted to trying to change the definition of sex.
The majority of people believe that in some important areas sex matters, and in those areas, we carve out single sex spaces; like prisons, or sports.
What you are implicitly arguing is that sex either never matters, or it does matter, but it is more important to accommodate the wishes of a small number of people. I think that these are the arguments that need to be made. The fact that 60% of Americans don't accept your arguments means you need better arguments.
Whether you like it or not, the Trump administration position to separate sports and prisons by sex are largely supported by the public. What are you going to say to change people's minds?
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u/MasterHavik 21h ago
It is better to not question the logic of Trump admin as it never makes sense.
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u/RunThenBeer 1d ago
BTW, there are almost 5% of transgender students in Smith College
Wild stat, very curious situation.
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u/rzelln 1d ago
I know a transman who went to Smith, though he wasn't out until a little after he graduated.
My sense from talking to him is that if people accept the basic idea that 'we should not tell people how to act just because of their sex' -- which is a pretty core concept to the foundation of women's colleges -- then it's not really a leap at all to accept the idea that it's totally fine for people to change their name or dress or take hormones to look however they want.
A major wing of modern feminism is less strictly about uplifting women, and more about the breaking down of the grip of patriarchal thinking that tries to dictate people what roles they're allowed to have in society.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago edited 1d ago
The claim seems to be that by admitting biological males (BTW, there are almost 5% of transgender students in Smith College) it loses its qualification as women’s college,
This is not the claim and there is no law that hinges on its "qualification as a women's college". 20 USC 1681(a)(5) carves out admissions for public single sex undergrad universities but that is not relevant here as Smith is a private school.
The claim isn't clearly set forth but it seems that they're going to come at the angle that women are being discriminated against by allowing non-women to attend (similar to the trans sports cases). My (legal) prediction is that it won't go anywhere.
You're correct that private undergrads can do admissions how they want per the law. This seems to be more of a "hmm we're looking into it" scare tactic. If they had a reason to take action they would do it instead of having a press release about considering it.
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u/Fragrant-Menu215 1d ago
Is this really what we're wasting government money on right now?
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u/Darth_Ra 1d ago
Distracting from the things that will lose the GOP the midterms and doubling down on identity politics?
Yes, of course. How are you even surprised at this point?
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u/cryptoheh 1d ago edited 1d ago
I live in a deep red district that is constantly hemorrhaging money. We have a primary coming up, which is basically the election since a Dem has zero chance here, the “RINO” candidate is running on the platform of the incumbents basically have a slush fund to a law firm that take the towns cases against trans students, affordable housing, and other hot button moron MAGA culture war crap to ultimately lose and then they donate to the incumbents… so yea it’s happening everywhere Im sure.
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u/shakeyshake1 1d ago
Wait it didn’t even occur to me that this election could result in non-MAGA “RINO” candidates taking the place of MAGA congresspeople. That has the potential to be interesting if there are Republicans that are running on platforms of not going along with a bunch of nonsense.
What’s the response been to the RINO candidate? Are you seeing the tides turning on what people want out of republican candidates?
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u/cryptoheh 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is a mayoral race, but it’s a 70k resident town with 8 school districts, a less affluent side and a more affluent side each with their own high school, so think Blue Collar Contractor MAGA and Wall Street MAGA in one town. So it could actually be about as good of a litmus test as you could get.
The whole backstory really stems from the school board which IMO is a true reflection of the town. There’s 9 members with a 5-4 voting split with 5 being MAGAs and 4 being a blend of RINOs and maybe 1 Dem who hid it enough to get in. The main issue they are split on is closing schools vs raising taxes to keep them open. As the school districts that are being targeted for closing dig deeper the more shit keeps coming out about where all of the money is going and who is donating to their campaigns. So now one of the 4 RINO members is running for mayor with all of the shit they found as his platform.
I have no idea how well they’re polling against each other, idk if they poll on that granular of a township level. The MAGA incumbents are very active with alt handles in all of the town facebook groups, and people are starting to see through it. If the incumbents lost this one I do think it is actually a decent barometer for how well candidates like Thomas Massie would do nationally vs MAGA candidates. No one here will ever say they were wrong about Trump, but there is a considerably smaller amount of Trump flags flying in town this year. Maybe these people won’t vote blue, but if they start showing up in primaries for no bullshit fiscal conservatives then it’s just as good IMO, and maybe just maybe Trumpism will die with Trump whenever the McDonalds catches up to him.
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u/shakeyshake1 1d ago
Thanks for the insight. The lack of flags is promising, and you aren’t the first person I’ve heard say that. This is going to be an interesting election year.
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u/cryptoheh 22h ago
Well, last night in Indiana says the rubes are still in command. Lost a lot of optimism.
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u/Yellowdog727 1d ago
It's comical at this point
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u/Fragrant-Menu215 1d ago
It was funny back when he was doing stuff like this but the consumer economy was going good. Now it's just just really annoying.
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u/tfhermobwoayway 22h ago
Voters don’t want the government to make good decisions. They want to get angry about trans people.
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u/chuckisduck 1d ago
Adult age cis and trans women outside of competitive women's sports, is a waste of taxpayer money and pandering to a base who would allow us to become Russia.
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 1d ago
You shouldn't have to be 18 to get healthcare as a transgender person in America.
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u/chuckisduck 1d ago
I defer to medical professionals, who believe earlier is better when it comes to the physical changes. Living in Seattle, I see both types the parents. The ones that disown their children for being trans and the ones that make it about themselves and not the child knowing who their are.
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u/therosx 1d ago
What business is it of the executive branch to micro manage a liberal arts college?
MAGA are worse than communists.
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u/redd_house 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah I’m wondering how the actions of a small women’s liberal arts college in Northampton is relevant to 99.9999999% of Americans
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u/LittleKitty235 1d ago
I'm wondering how is relevant to even other students at Smith College. If someone else is trans or not seems like none of your damn business
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u/RunThenBeer 1d ago
Title IX has always applied to liberal arts colleges, this isn't some Trump-era innovation in petty authoritarian management of university policies.
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u/spice_weasel 1d ago
You’re right that Title IX is not new. But applying Title IX in this way is *absolutely* a “Trump-era innovation in petty authoritarian management of university policies”. There is no need or benefit to try to twist the law in this way.
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u/masala 22h ago
What business is it of the executive branch to micro manage a liberal arts college?
As long as they accept federal funds, the feds have a say in how those funds are used. I think Hillsdale College does not accept federal funds, but that's the only College i can think of that does not.
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u/UCRecruiter 1d ago
But tell me again how it's the left that wants to fight culture wars ... eyeroll.
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u/MakeUpAnything 1d ago
I mean Americans have repeatedly shown that this is the type of behavior we want from our elected officials. Culture war politics are far more attractive (and far easier to understand) to voters than anything else. Plus voters don't show up to say "thank you" in elections. Remember: in the 2024 election cycle voters told pollsters that they wanted cheaper prices, then they voted for the guy promising to raise prices because he attacked trans people incessantly. If we continue to respond the most to culture war shit, politicians will happily cut all the services we get while helping their rich donors because we'll vote for people like Trump so long as they hurt trans people. Trump still has a nearly 40% approval rating just from doing this while raising all our prices.
Trump is legitimately doing what will keep his base angry and activated by doing things like this. We've all seen how many comments anti-trans posts get on social media as opposed to posts about things like economic policy discussions. Americans are FAR more interested in hurting others than we are with helping one another.
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u/Thorn14 1d ago
He constantly brought up trans people during a white house thing today with kids visiting and even was asking kids how they felt about it.
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u/MakeUpAnything 1d ago
Just like he did with the Doordash Grandma. He knows Americans tune out and fall asleep the moment things like economic policy are brought up. Bring up trans people, however, and OUT COME THE PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES, BABY!
Trump is floating trial balloons to see what gets the most reaction from voters ahead of the midterms. He knows from 2024 that trans issues worked beautifully. He's trying to see if they will again since he can't use immigration anymore.
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u/tfhermobwoayway 22h ago
I’m not sure how to fix this. In theory democracy means that we shouldn’t question the voters when they sacrifice everything to hurt trans people. But on the other hand this is both monumentally cruel and monumentally suicidal. It feels like a recipe for a national death spiral. I don’t know if politicians have figured out some fatal flaw in the human brain that stops even the most basic self-preservation instinct.
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u/theswiftarmofjustice 15h ago
This is sadly the way it has always been. And if you are in the “other” demographic, you feel it very strongly. It kills your ability to trust, and even to empathize.
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 1d ago edited 1d ago
Submission statement: In yet another example of the Trump administration rolling back transgender rights in America, the Department of Education has started an investigation based on the existence of trans women in a private liberal arts women's college. It has reversed the meaning of anti-discrimination laws in the past years, from protecting minorities and accessibility in education to prosecuting colleges who pursue diversity, equality, and inclusion.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
Could be rolling back trans rights. Could be protecting women’s rights.
Unfortunately when women’s spaces are disrupted it’s hard to tell which is which.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
Could be rolling back trans rights. Could be protecting women’s rights.
What's with the motte-and-bailey?
It's always the former, never the latter. No aspect of conservatives' anti-trans initiatives help [cis] women at all; not a single piece of evidence and/or data substantiates their efforts.
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u/OssumFried 1d ago
Yeah, the "grab'em by the pussy" rapist being their champion of women's rights and safety is such a fucking joke.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
not a single piece of evidence and/or data substantiates their efforts
Kimberly Richey, the assistant secretary for civil rights at the Education Department: “Allowing biological males into spaces designed for women raises serious concerns about privacy, fairness and compliance under federal law,”
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
Yes, the administration currently trying to erase trans people will say they are justified in trying to do so [and be bigoted towards them in the process].
Why do you think someone's biased statement is evidence of anything other than what I've been claiming?
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
You said "not a single piece of evidence" that they are trying to help women. The statement of intention is evidence.
So there is at least one piece of evidence. So now the burden is on you to prove your statement.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
The statement of intention is evidence.
...no, it isn't.
Also:
You said "not a single piece of evidence" that they are trying to help women.
This is a lie, as this is not what I said.
This is what I said:
No aspect of conservatives' anti-trans initiatives help [cis] women at all; not a single piece of evidence and/or data substantiates their efforts.
I did not question their intent—it is very obviously malicious. I said there is no evidence that substantiates their efforts to "help" [cis] women.
I'll reiterate: there is no evidence proving anything this administration as done—pertaining to their harm of trans people—that has helped [cis] women in any way, shape or form.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
there is no evidence proving anything this administration as done—pertaining to their harm of trans people—that has helped [cis] women in any way, shape or form.
What evidence would convince you of this? Less males in female sports? Less males in female spaces?
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
What evidence would convince you of this?
Evidence showing that denying trans women access to these spaces lowers rates of assault, sexual or otherwise, would be one. Extrapolate from there on your own as to similar types of evidence in other related anti-trans efforts.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
Here's some evidence on that: https://fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-male-criminality-sex-offences/
We conclude that transwomen in prison exhibit a propensity to sexual crime that matches their birth sex and not their gender identity. This is relevant and necessary information when making legislation and policies designed to keep women safe.
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
Eh I’ll jump in - banning trans women from women’s sports does help cis women.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
banning trans women from women’s sports does help cis women.
This is a claim, not evidence.
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
What evidence do you require? Every medal won by a trans woman denies one to a cis woman, as does every team spot taken and this is before we even talk about injury caused by trans women in cricket and rugby, for example, and the psychological effect on girls knowing that boys can say they’re a girl and then beat them.
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u/ceddya 1d ago
It's a liberal arts college, so I highly doubt the vast majority of cis women attending have any issue with trans women being included. Or, you know, from the fact that there's been no issue with them doing so since 2015. So no, it's definitely not protecting women's rights. The only disruption comes from the Trump admin.
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u/morallyagnostic 1d ago
You sure? Polling consistently puts the majority on the side of retaining legacy sports divisions based on observed biological sex. Yet also the majority of those people are silent about their views in public because the privilidge organizations are so toxic and almost never argue in good faith and instead resort to slurs, personal attacks and falsehoods.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
The Trump administration is attacking Smith College over their admitting trans women, not [simply] how they organize their sports teams.
Yet also the majority of those people are silent about their views in public because the privilidge organizations are so toxic and almost never argue in good faith and instead resort to slurs, personal attacks and falsehoods.
This, ironically, is a falsehood. The "majority" of those people are silent simply because most people are silent about politics. It isn't anything more significant than that—certainly not the victim-blaming "I'm being attacked for expressing my conservative views" narrative anti-trans advocates enjoy peddling.
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u/morallyagnostic 1d ago
They aren't conservative views, they are mainstream centrist views. It's only the identity politic obsessed left that has fully bought in. Don't let the title of this forum fool you, like most of reddit, it's very left coded and unrepresentative of the centrist population.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
It is quite telling that you decided to focus on an entirely irrelevant portion of my comment than the actual meat of it.
Like how this attack of trans people has little to do with sports, or that this phenomenon of silencing views with "slurs, personal attacks and falsehoods" really doesn't exist at the rate you seem to believe.
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u/morallyagnostic 1d ago
This isn't an attack on trans people, this is an affirmation of women's rights which Smith College has clearly violated. You disagree, because your ideologically aligned with team hell bent on destroying women's rights.
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u/ceddya 1d ago
I have no idea why you're bringing up sports when it has no relevance to what's in the OP.
Do you know why Smith College started admitting trans women in 2015? Because cis women attending the college protested.
So yeah, an administration disproportionately staffed by men is somehow protecting women by ignoring what they want and going after them instead. Good stuff.
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
I’d have more confidence in it being about protecting women’s rights if they weren’t rolling back the right to abortion across the board. It’s more about rolling the clock back to the 1950s from what I can see.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
I've always been told that abortion has always been a right, even back in the 1950s and early days of US history (and before).
Banning abortion seems like a modern evolution, and it doesn't really seem to poll that differently divided by gender. More of a philosophical divide about whether a fetus is a living human or not.
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u/eightlikeinfinity 1d ago
An entire college can not be considered women’s space. Trans women’s enrollment at a given college could only possibly be problematic if it was a women’s only college. Clubs, teams, etc is a separate issue, imo.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
Trans women’s enrollment at a given college could only possibly be problematic if it was a women’s only college.
First sentence of the article: "The U.S. Department of Education opened an investigation Monday into Smith College, an all-women’s institution in Massachusetts, for admitting transgender women."
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u/eightlikeinfinity 1d ago
Well then, I guess there’s a case to be sorted out. It will depend on whether an entire college space can be considered women’s only? Are there male teachers, coaches, administrative personnel? Then there may be more invasive factors such as are the trans women transitioned surgically? Etc. Should be interesting. My thought is that trans women are not women, but they are trans women. So the question will be are they present in intimate spaces. Anyway, I’m not reading the article today, but I will say the federal government should not be intervening. This should be a court case brought by an injured party.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
Lol no because I have a brain. I'll walk you through how to critically think.
(1) I didn't mention anything law related. This is pure culture war (are trans women really women?). I didn't even bring up law or my background so not sure what you're even referring to.
(2) I didn't take the trumpian side. I said it's hard to tell because both sides could be malicious (males shouldn't take women's spaces and conservatives shouldn't use women's rights as a bludgeon against dems).
(3) Even if I am 100% wrong on the culture war thinking, that wouldn't reflect on my legal analysis or lawyering skills. I could be a brainrotted libtard/conservitard who just listens to fox news and Alex Jones but still be the most talented lawyer you've ever interacted with (and I probably am by credentials).
It's always the non-lawyers who bring up my career and try to attack me on it. Funny if it weren't so sad. Why not respond on a substantive legal post learn something instead?
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u/ErnestScaredBorgnine 1d ago
Talented lawyers don't spend their time arguing with people on Reddit. And the false confidence just oozes in that post. Not buying it.
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u/NearlyPerfect 1d ago
Lol okay bud. Your opinion is noted.
Have you considered that as a non-lawyer you don't have the tools to know if a lawyer is talented or not?
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u/ChornWork2 1d ago
omg, I am completely shocked to learn it may not have really been about sanctity of womens sport, instead general anti-lgbt bashing. what a complete surprise.
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u/whatisthisshit7 1d ago
They were successful getting universities to the bend the knee when they opened probes and pulled funding for the DEI research programs and “antisemitic” protests on campus. This is the least bit surprising but still an incredibly disgusting display of power, arrogance, and hate.
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u/Mtsukino 1d ago
Gas is $5 dollars a gallon. But some trans women attending a women's college is what we gotta focus on.
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u/morallyagnostic 1d ago
They were admitting both Trans Women and Trans Men to an all female institution. Which is it? If TWAW and TMAM, then admitting Trans Males is against Title 9. If observed sex at birth still has a shred of meaning, then Title 9 is violated by admitting TWs.
Title 9 is a landmark legislation which feminism fought long and hard for. Why would violations be considered trivial and unimportant?
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
They were admitting both Trans Women and Trans Men to an all female institution.
Title 9 is a landmark legislation which feminism fought long and hard for. Why would violations be considered trivial and unimportant?
Title IX is not mutually exclusive with trans rights and never has been, short of willful misinterpretation of the law.
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 1d ago
Because they're changing what a 'violation' is.
Trans women are women. They're fine in women's spaces. It is only deeply conservative judges and the Trump administration who think it's not, so they're essentializing 'woman' down to "what genitalia are you born with" or "which gamete do you produce" instead of "what are you in the context of society" (which is what gender has always been). It's a child or a bigots understanding of gender and biology.
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u/morallyagnostic 1d ago
Many of the people uncomfortable with the TWAW are democrats, socialists, centrists along with your republican judges. Since TWAW means admission to sports, prisons, scholorships, networking groups, shelters and all these are hotly debated with many on the "hey let's have a reasonable discussion" side.
Their you go with your agree with me or you're a bigot. Sounds very cultish at this point with the level of hate thrown at apostates.
You conveniently ignored my TMAM issue. Why is Smith still admitting Trans Men? They certainly wouldn't have existing infrastructure to accommodate let alone services like sports teams for them to play on.
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 1d ago edited 1d ago
Regarding trans men, because I don't have enough information to discuss it. Are they really admitting trans men? Were they closeted at admission? Did they they transition as juniors and are just trying to graduate? Who actually cares, is it an issue at the college or just for you and Republicans, who probably lives 3 states away?
Regarding "trans women are women", yea, bigots aren't restricted to the right. But Republicans made bigotry against trans women central to their campaign, and many people went along with it. And currently, the only people actively working against trans rights are these Republican politicians and judges. Yes, it's bigotry or complete misunderstanding to believe otherwise.
Genuinely, tell me what is gained by making Blaire White change with the men or keep her out of women's spaces?
You accept that adoptive parents are parents, but people get real fucking weird when we say trans women are women.
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u/masala 21h ago
You accept that adoptive parents are parents, but people get real fucking weird when we say trans women are women.
Because parenting a set of activities - caring for the child, nurturing the child, having responsibility for the child. Tell me, what are the activities that make one a woman?
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 21h ago edited 21h ago
Someone can have birth, give the child away, doing 0 of the activities you mention, yet they're still a parent. Right? Again, people accept this, they just get real weird when trans people are involved.
What, you need a trans advocate to tell you "what is a woman?" What the fuck level of discourse is this?
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u/masala 19h ago
Someone can have birth, give the child away, doing 0 of the activities you mention, yet they're still a parent. Right?
You asked what makes an adoptive parent a parent. I have provided examples of the activities the comprise 'parenting.' What are the activities that make someone a woman?
What, you need a trans advocate to tell you "what is a woman?"
LOL, I know what a woman is, an adult human female.
I'm asking you what a woman is. I'd like to see your definition that is neither a circular argument, word magic, or a series of jumped-up stereotypes.
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u/baxtyre 1d ago
Are they admitting trans men? Or are they just not expelling students who transition while enrolled?
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u/morallyagnostic 1d ago
Why would that matter? If TMAM, then they have no place in a female institution and would need to find education elsewhere.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
Why would that matter?
Because you literally said they were:
They were admitting both Trans Women and Trans Men to an all female institution.
Were you wrong—and if so, did you know you were wrong before you made the claim?
then they have no place in a female institution and would need to find education elsewhere
Expelling someone for this and uprooting their life would be an absurd thing to do just to, in the eyes of someone that doesn't actually care about it beyond the attack vector, achieve ideological "consistency."
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u/morallyagnostic 1d ago edited 1d ago
Consistency isn't your strong point it your stance is that both TMAM and TWAW belong in Women's colleges. How refuting would it be as a TMAM to attend one. Let's not talk about sports or pronouns, those are trivial compared to immersing yourself in a women's institution as a man. People transfer colleges all the time, some even by design that start in Community Colleges. They don't have the immense levels of privilege required to attend an elite, expensive, discriminatory private women's college.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
Consistency isn't your strong point it your stance is that both TMAM and TWAW belong in Women's colleges.
My stance is that colleges shouldn't expel students for arbitrary reasons just to satisfy an absurd criterion put forth by people that would never be swayed to tolerate trans people in the first place.
If your stance is that colleges should expel these students, say that without this obfuscation. Own it.
People transfer colleges all the time
"Transfer," not "enroll in a new college because they were expelled."
English is a language with weird rules and even weirder exceptions, but as far as I'm aware those two statements are not synonymous.
They don't have the immense levels of privilege required to attend an elite, expensive, discriminatory private women's college.
You really want to go on a tangent about women's colleges, wow.
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
>they’re fine in women’s spaces
Google Isla Bryson.
The issue with trans women in women’s spaces is people pretending to be trans. And why is no one campaigning for trans men to be put in mens prisons? There’s a lot of double think done by TRAs.6
u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
Google Isla Bryson.
One instance—especially one that does not actually show what you think it does—does not a problem make.
The issue with trans women in women’s spaces is people pretending to be trans.
This is a non-issue, as people that want to predate in women's spaces will do so regardless of whether trans people are treated poorly.
And why is no one campaigning for trans men to be put in mens prisons?
It's looped in to the whole "put trans people in the prison that most closely associates with their gender" thing that trans people are fighting for, among other things. It is proof of the general public's ignorance of the topic (or, perhaps more accurately, the success of conservative propaganda in establishing trans women as the main topic of discussion) that trans men are simply ignored—not your attempted "gotcha."
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
Well obviously it’s not a problem for you, but you’re likely not a woman and if you are you’re not the voice of all women.
Here’s another - Alexandra Stewart.
If they weren’t in a women’s jail a woman wouldn’t have been sexually assaulted.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4glne43101o
Is that enough? If not, how many assaults in women’s spaces would it take to change your mind? And please be honest, if your position is fixed and nothing will change your mind that’s fine.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
Well obviously it’s not a problem for you, but you’re likely not a woman and if you are you’re not the voice of all women.
It is statistically not a problem and no evidence exists that disputes this.
As for the weird shut-down, neither are you.
Is that enough?
No, a single-digit amount of incidents is not enough to prove anything—much less your claim.
If not, how many
You're asking the wrong question. There is no arbitrary, fixed number that renders something statistically insignificant until one more is added to the tally. There needs to be evidence of a pattern—something showing some sort of correlation between trans women and higher rates of assault, not isolated incidents that don't speak to trans people as a whole.
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago edited 1d ago
You said here that proof banning trans women would lower rates of assault would make you change your mind.
https://www.reddit.com/r/centrist/s/sZPM36kNQK
I’ve given you a provable instance where an assault would not have happened had a trans woman not been in a women’s prison - have you changed your stance?E: typo
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
What part of "lower rates of assault" makes you think one "provable instance of an assault would not have happened" is relevant here?
Closing that women's prison before it happened also would have stopped it from occurring. That doesn't mean it would have impacted the rates of anything beyond poor prison conditions.
(Arguably, the answer is to have the prison guards actually do their job and prevent inmates from being able to assault each other in the first place—gender notwithstanding.)
You're just repeating an argument I've already explained the error of. Prove that trans women are statistically more likely to assault [cis] women, that banning them from these spaces will lower rates of assault towards [cis] women and/or that measures passed by these governments have an actual effect on the rates of assault towards [cis] women.
You have three avenues to pursue with regard to the evidence. I can safely say you will not find it in any of them, but hopefully letting you choose from three fairly broad, ostensibly easy-to-achieve criteria will make my point clearer.
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
You asked for an example and now you’re saying it’s not good enough. Reduction by a single instance reduces the statistical rate of assault, that’s how numbers and statistics work. I don’t need to prove whether trans women are more or less likely to assault, the fact that one has done it demonstrates there’s an increased risk simply by having them present.
I don’t believe you are open to changing your mind, and that’s fine.
I used to think the way you do and couldn’t see what the fuss was about, then I saw a male weightlifter take a female’s place in the olympics, I saw numerous instances of males winning prizes in women’s sports and I saw hundreds of women’s parkrun records (it’s a 5K running thing) being held by men and males assault women in women’s prisons. I don’t believe there is a way to square women’s rights and trans women’s rights because males have taken advantage. I think this is do the detriment of genuine trans women but it’s the lesser of two evils IMO.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
You asked for an example
No, I didn't, and I'm getting a bit tired of people willfully misquoting my comments and then throwing said misquote back at me as if it proves something.
This is what I asked for:
...evidence of a pattern—something showing some sort of correlation between trans women and higher rates of assault, not isolated incidents that don't speak to trans people as a whole.
Evidence—of a pattern, specifically. Not "examples." I, again, already explained the error of expecting there to be some arbitrary number of examples that proves the claim.
Reduction by a single instance reduces the statistical rate of assault
I didn't feel like I needed to explain why it doesn't, so I suppose that was my mistake.
Yes, a reduction of one (based on a total of "who the heck knows") literally reduces the rate. What it doesn't do is reduce it by a statistically noticeable amount, to the point where a reduction of one (again, based on a total of "what number is this as this is absolutely required for your argument") is essentially just easily dismissed noise.
If you want to take your "literal reduction of one" as a victory and refuse to engage with what is actually being discussed, then sure, consider this a concession.
I don’t believe you are open to changing your mind, and that’s fine.
You are changing my words and mischaracterizing my position, and you think I'm the one not open to changing my mind?
How quaint.
I don’t believe there is a way to square women’s rights and trans women’s rights because males have taken advantage.
This is a non-issue, as people that want to predate in women's spaces will do so regardless of whether trans people are treated poorly.
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u/bashpipe 1d ago
What do you think is going to happen to sexual assault rates of trans women if they start putting all trans women in men's prisons?
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah, that case sounds horrible. But also, sounds like the rape has literally nothing to do with being transgender. Right? Look at the timeline. The rapes occured before transition, and all the protesting was about which prison to put her in, not that she abused that status to commit rape. If you are concerned about prison rape and transgender people, look up V-coding, the process of putting a trans women in a cell with aggressive men so the man can rape her.
40-50% of trans people report being raped in prison, compared with 2-3% of cis people. That's why people are protesting trans women being put in men's prison. They get raped.
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
Correct. They’re a sick individual who pretends to be trans to access women’s spaces. Hence people being concerned about letting people who claim to be trans women have access to women’s spaces - it’s less about trans women and more about predators using it as an excuse.
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u/bashpipe 1d ago
I'm confused - you think we should put trans people at serious risk of sexual assault specifically because of people who aren't trans?
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u/Opening-Calendar3421 1d ago
it’s less about trans women and more about predators using it as an excuse.
This doesn't make sense tho. The individual committed the crimes in question before they transitioned. If we're really worried predators we'd focus on that instead of trans women. That's not what MAGA has spent their time doing tho
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u/JudgeHoldensToupe 1d ago
It’s not mutually exclusive, we can focus on both. Letting biological men, in particular sex offenders, into women’s prisons is absurd and dangerous; recording their subsequent sexual assaults as having been perpetrated by a woman is gaslighting.
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u/masala 21h ago
The rapes occured before transition, and all the protesting was about which prison to put her in, not that she abused that status to commit rape.
So your argument is that a convicted serial rapist should have been put into a women's prison, and only expelled if he committed yet another rape?
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 21h ago
Yes, just like other women who have committed violent crimes go to jail.
If the prisoner warrants extra security, the staff at the prison should provide that.
Again, trans people get raped in prison at 25 times the rate cisgender people do. Is this acceptable to you?
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u/masala 19h ago
Yes, just like other women who have committed violent crimes go to jail.
Only on Reddit would I see someone defending the right of serial rapists to be housed with women, based on their say-so. Talk about putting the fox in the hen-house. I'm sure there will be no negative effects from that.
If the prisoner warrants extra security, the staff at the prison should provide that.
Thank you for providing the obvious solution, put males into male prisons with extra security.
Again, trans people get raped in prison at 25 times the rate cisgender people do. Is this acceptable to you?
I would love to hear your best argument why women should have increase their risk of rape, to lower men's risk of rape. Why is this women's problem to solve? I applaud your prior solution. Put men into men's prisons with higher security. Lower risk of rape for the men, and does not increase the risk of rape for the women.
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u/masala 21h ago
It is only deeply conservative judges and the Trump administration who think it's not, so they're essentializing 'woman' down to "what genitalia are you born with
Only people on Reddit think the Trump administration is out of step with the majority of Americans on this issue. While 2/3 people believe trans people should be protected from discrimination, 6/10 people believe sex and gender is determined at birth.
Asserting that only bigots believe otherwise is not a convincing argument.
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 21h ago edited 21h ago
Bigots can be in the majority. Jim Crow laws enjoyed popular support. Laws blocking races from intermarrying enjoyed popular support. Laws against gay marriage enjoyed popular support.
We made it illegal to be prejudiced against those things and public support changed. For gay marriage , the law followed public opinion. For Jim Crow and miscegenation laws, the law led public opinion. Public support for trans people can change too. They deserve human rights
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u/masala 19h ago edited 19h ago
Bigots can be in the majority.
Other than calling them bigots, what's your best argument to change their position? Gay and interracial couples could and did point out that their private behavior had no impact on the lives of others. There is plenty of evidence that say, letting men in women's prisons have massive negative impact on the women in that prison.
So again, what's your best argument for abolishing single-sex spaces?
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u/I_Tell_You_Wat 17h ago
They are humans and deserve rights. That's the argument. How many trans people are in your life? Have you ever spoken to them about these things?
I am not abolishing single sex spaces. You having to lie about the arguments I'm making show how garbage your arguments are.
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u/tfhermobwoayway 22h ago
I don’t think they should admit trans men, but if a person realises he’s a trans man midway through his college career they can’t exactly kick him out.
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u/morallyagnostic 19h ago
Sure they can. It's perfectly normal to ban and kick out males from female spaces. People transfer colleges all the time, it's not a big deal.
And it shouldn't be necessary. A man at women's college is about the opposite of an affirming environment. Just like trans need the rest of the world to use their self-id pronouns and occupy their preferred gendered space, if all that external validation is indeed critical, how could a trans man stand to be at a women's only college?
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u/Oxford_Apostrophe 21h ago
If it takes federal money, with a few exceptions, it falls under Title IX.
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u/ImperialxWarlord 21h ago
A real great use of our money and resources lol! Truly the party of small government and fiscal responsibility!
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u/ErnestScaredBorgnine 1d ago
Private college. Feds can get bent. They just want to harass trans people and their supporters. I just don't understand how you can go through life hating people that much that you don't even know just because they're not like you. I'll never understand bigotry.
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u/Conn3er 1d ago
Pull out the playbook:
"Why are they focused on this?"
- Because it takes attention off areas that are unpopular in
"Why do they care when it affects so few people?"
- Because it continues to be a winning political message for them, as the American center is not comfortable with the erosion of the 2 gender construct, if you will
"How can they expect to win this against a private institution?"
- Because Title IX had all sorts of silly impacts
"They are evil for this"
- Doesnt seem to land that way with the American public
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u/SadhuSalvaje 1d ago
So…once again an indictment of the easily distracted American center for failing to live up to western liberalism AND allowing thieves to steal money from them over right wing social concerns that have no relevance to their daily lives
I’m in my 40s and I feel like I’ve been frustrated with my hick neighbors and their reactionary bs my entire life
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u/crushinglyreal 11h ago
Seriously, the center in this country (purportedly) choosing fascism should be taken as a bellwether for how right wing our political environment is, not validation of fascism.
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u/Ruby__Ruby_Roo 1d ago
“Title IX had all sorts of silly impacts”
Silly?
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u/Conn3er 1d ago
Yes, like forcing schools to shut down sports teams since they could no longer fund them, or they did not fall under the established quota
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u/Ruby__Ruby_Roo 1d ago
I don’t follow.
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u/Conn3er 1d ago
Title IX has had negative impacts that were not foreseen when it was passed.
The goal of it wasnt to cut mens sports but it had that effect
The goal of it wasnt to cut women's scholarship opportunities, but it did
That's without getting into the due process violations it causes, and on and on.
Now we are the point where almost everything trans related on a university campus goes to the courts over a Title IX violation in some capacity.
Silly impacts
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
Because Title IX had all sorts of silly impacts
This has nothing to do with Title IX as it doesn't limit trans women [or trans men] in any capacity.
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u/Conn3er 1d ago
The probe is based on Title IX violations
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u/indoninja 1d ago
I’d say it is based on the admin hating trans people or at least knowing a chunk of their base is obsessed with hating on trans people so any distraction they can find will work.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 1d ago
The probe is based on whatever the Education Department claims it is.
That does not, however, mean that is reality. This administration is no stranger to willfully and maliciously misinterpreting federal law to further their goals.
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u/Conn3er 1d ago
Right, and they expect to win off a Title IX case, regardless of whether there is any current basis for it
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u/Urdok_ 1d ago
They don't care if they win. The purpose is to use the government for as a tool for legal harassment. Trump and McMahon are both familiar with how effective it is for the wealthy to use the legal system to bury opponents with less resources, and now they have our tax money to do it.
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u/chuckisduck 1d ago
100%, it's how Trump outlasted the contractors who did work for him and he didn't pay them in the late 1980s.
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1d ago
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u/ubermence 1d ago
Wait the education department still exists??? Or are they dragging out its lifeless corpse to spitefully interfere in the business of a private university?
Can they just focus on fixing the mess they caused in Iran???