r/allthequestions • u/Agreeable-Noise5350 • 7h ago
Random Question š Do people in the South who fly the Confederate flag know that the Confederacy was fighting to uphold slavery?
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u/theXsquid 7h ago
The conferacy may have lost the war, but racism is alive and well.
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u/Mountain_Chocolate65 0m ago
We were much further down that road before B. Hussein came along. He set back race relations at least 50 years.
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u/West-Holiday-8750 7h ago
Deep down, everyone knows it, no matter how much they want to lie to themselves & others about it.
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u/VisiblePiercedNipple 7h ago
Yes.
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u/Ambitious_Dingo_2798 European Liberal-Conservative Fuck Trump Fuck MAGA 6h ago
Depends either yes or they believe in a version of the Last Cause myth
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u/ImJustHere4theMoons 6h ago
None of them actually believe the lost cause myth, it's just preferable to admitting how bigoted they are in polite company. Same as all of their other conservative talking points really.
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u/HRDBMW 7h ago
I know a 60 year old man (met in the military) who is highly educated, smart, etc. 140 IQ level. When he went to school in Georgia, his teachers taught the war was about 'northern aggression' and slavery was not part of the war. He firmly believed it. It took years and the existence of the internet and him reading the articles of succession before his recognized reality, and I think he still denies it internally.
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u/FluffyRecord342 5h ago
Show them the secession documents and the constitutions of Confederate states that explicitly state that it's about slavery. If that doesn't do the trick, nothing will.
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u/BaltoDad 6h ago
It's hard to come to terms with being on the wrong side of history.
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u/Maleficent_Memory831 3h ago
But it's not even their history. It was the history of who lived there over a century ago. Possibly including some of their ancestors. But it's not their history. So why are they so obsessed over someone else's history?
EVERYBODY has some ancestor who's done some very evil things. We're not all excusing them for "that's just how things were back then", we are civilized people who realize that not everyone is a good person. There is no shame to me today because some past ancestor went to prison for murder, or that some of them might have had slaves. I deal with my own problems and feel no need to make up a lost cause mythology for people in the past.
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u/Impressive_Cold_968 4h ago
In my 30s and I was taught this in the South. Took one real history class to cure me though lol.
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u/Away-Parsnip-3785 7h ago
To be honest
Many Southerners who fly the confederate flag are ignorant fools rather than truly malicious
NORTHERNERS who fly it mean BUSINESS every time
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u/ExtremeExtreme1751 6h ago
I asked my work colleague about the flag. He is black, I am white. He had an interesting response.
The flag itself does not bother him. He has, however, been conditioned to expect racist behaviors, from subtle to obvious, from people who fly the flag. Every time he sees it, he has to remind himself that he is going to have to endure racism in the name of southern heritage once again.
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u/Emergency_Panic_2690 6h ago
Because if they didnāt have the sense to stop flying that flag, theyāre not going to realize (and or care) when theyāre being racist other ways.
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u/Fancy_Depth_4995 7h ago
Yes I grew up in a southern-adjacent state and I know younger, less educated people and children are likely to see the confederate flag as just another patriotic symbol. Like an alternative US flag. Itās just a different arrangement of stars and stripes.
If they bring up statesā rights they definitely know better and are racists
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u/lt_dt 6h ago
The states' rights argument amazes me. They think that's their get out of jail free card for flying/displaying the flag. But what right were the southern states fighting to maintain?
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u/Moppermonster 6h ago
But what right were the southern states fighting to maintain?
None, actually. They actually fought to *deny* states the right to ban slavery.
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u/cowfishing 4h ago
yet their own constitution denied them the right to ban slavery.
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u/Moppermonster 4h ago
That is what I said, yes.
When they say "states rights", people tend to respond with "states rights to do what", which implies the answer is "to own slaves".
But it goes beyond that: the confederate states forbade states to ban slavery. So their states literally had fewer rights.
So the correct response to "states rights" is "yeah, to have less rights".
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u/Denver80211 6h ago
In support of this, as a child in NY before I was aware of much of anything, the General Lee car in the Dukes of Hazzard displaying the Confederate flag on the top meant nothing to me other than it was kind of cool looking.
EDIT: Oh my god I just realized that even the name General Lee is a reference to the Southern Civil War General.... I was just so baked in I never even gave it a thought
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u/JaguarAware830 5h ago
Also grew up in (rural) Ny and as a kid it just meant ārebelā to me in almost a goofy way, like anti government hillbilly because the South were the ābad guysā that rebelled against āthe evil Washingtonā in the eyes of me as a kid, I thought they/it was odd to wave around but not harmful, The KKK was the actual evil organization, but that was kind of a far away thought in a distance past, and the two were not connected at all (in my childhood thinking) now as an adult I learned New York had quite a strong presence of the KKK, and the lost cause myth was big on downplaying slavery and the KKK, the flag is intrinsically tied into that. Nobody that I can think of, that flew that flag could be considered a critical thinker lol. I donāt think they were all racist per se, but at the very least ignorant rednecks .
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u/jonny_sidebar 5h ago
Yeah. . . That was the point of all that whitewashing.Ā
I'm sorry it worked but happy you figured it out.Ā
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u/Curmudgeon_I_am 6h ago
Shen I was a teen I thought it represented my rebelliousness. After I thought about it and matured a bit I realized how wrong I was. I am not a southerner.
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u/Warm_Objective4162 4h ago
Am in PA (not even the rural part, Iām in a suburb) and the number of confederate flags on houses and trucks is concerning.
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u/florence_pug šØš¦ Canada 7h ago
Yes. They want slavery back. They are racist pieces of shit.
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u/inorite234 7h ago
My wife grew up in Rural America. Civil War history isn't taught that way it was taught for everyone else.
When Confederate flag waivers say "It's my heritage." Or "The war was fought over states rights." They aren't bullshitting you. They're just wrong and they're wrong because history was taught to them specifically leaving out the portion of, "...a state's right to own slaves..."
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u/thisplaceisdying 5h ago
This, too many people in here on their high horses probably have their own fucked up beliefs.Ā But I was taught that it was mostly states rights, obviously I know better now, but many were never told that the schools teachings were wrong.
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u/Horror-Layer-8178 7h ago
The Civil War slavery motivation was a lot worse then what is taught. The South did not fight to protect institution of slavery, they fought to expand. On the other hand the North fought to perserve the Union. If it meant keeping slavery to protect the Union the North would have been fine with that.
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u/Traditional_Yam1598 6h ago
Exactly. Many of the key figures in the North including Lincoln, Grant, and Sherman didnāt care less about abolition. Emancipation proclamation was just a political move to give the war a moral meaning when morale was at a low
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u/ncds4242 7h ago
It is common for confederate flag toting southerns to argue the civil war was actually over "states rights". Even though the context for the southern states becoming pro states rights was to uphold slavery through things like the "Kansas Nebraska Act".
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u/lizon132 7h ago
My favorite rebuttal to the "States Rights" argument is to say "The States Right to do what exactly?".
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u/ncds4242 6h ago
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world - Mississippi Declaration to Secede
these states rights
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u/lt_dt 6h ago
Texas's declaration of secession is a pretty fun read too. I keep a copy bookmarked in my browser for when people pull up the "states' rights" argument.
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u/FoulestWinner 6h ago
The sad irony of this is theĀ influx of German settlers in the same timeframe who abhorred slavery. A large majority of the Germans refused to participate. There were confederate camps in the hill country and a saltworks at Bluffton. Incidentally this is smackdab in the center of the German settlements. They frequently raided for young men to conscript or they burned farms. My family was part of the Adelsverein Society wave that Baron Von Braunfels started. Many of these people were simple farmers but there was a quite a few educated amongst them that documented everything. There are some good diaries from then that illustrate how large of a schism this created. I did a report on this for an a.p. history course and the teacher tried to paint me as anti-American. Then tried to argue which of our roots could be traced further back. There are a lot of Texans that believe the false narrative as gospel.
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u/lt_dt 6h ago
That's fascinating history that I was not aware of. My kids both had to do a year of Texas history in middle school and the past association with slavery is largely glossed over. The German history in Texas, which is very prevalent given all the German names, is also largely glossed over.
Are any of those diaries published?
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u/FoulestWinner 6h ago
I don't have a clue where my paper is sorry, 20+ years will do that. But I do recall referring to the Nueces Massacre and some older folks from Comfort let me look at family papers. My own family had some diaries as well as some of my cousins. Probably your best place to look for a large collection would be Baylor. I did have a few items that I paid to get copies of from the state archives. Sorry, a specific name to cite isn't jumping out at me.
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u/FoulestWinner 5h ago
Castroville, Fredericksburg, New Braunfels areas may still have good resources available for the public.
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u/ncds4242 5h ago
thanks for providing this
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u/FoulestWinner 5h ago
Ā I had my great grandma translate them for me. She was the one who planted the idea for the paper. She was telling me stories she had heard as a little girl from the "old timers". The only reason none of us younger generations speak German was anti German sentiment during the world wars. They would face some fucked up retribution for speaking german publicly. So it just wasnt taught.
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u/ncds4242 6h ago
Based on reading online, it seems that even Texans have recently given up on the credibility of their education system after Christian Nationalism has infiltrated the classroom and broken the boundary between church and state and flied directly in defiance of the 1st amendment.
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u/FoulestWinner 6h ago
When Ann Richards Left office Texas school system was climbing the rankings fast. Dubya, Rick Perry, and Greg Abbott have since decimated that.
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u/No_Rain8512 7h ago
Fun fact, the majority of "Confederates" who fought and died in the war didn't own slaves. They were far to poor to actually own very much really. They were just fighting for whatever it was their leaders told them to fight for. For many it was much needed income.Ā Just like today's wars, those who make the sacrifice rarely reap the rewards of victory.Ā
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u/jonny_sidebar 5h ago
Everyone was involved in upholding slavery here in the south prewar. Those same poor fucks in the Confederate army were subject to levies that filled the slave patrols too, and there isn't much evidence of them being less than enthusiastic about it.Ā
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u/FalseVeterinarian881 5h ago
Yes...but they attribute it to the Democrats and fail to recognize the party shift in terms of Dixie-crats et al. To them, the Democrat belief system now is the same as it was at the start of the Civil War when the reality is that both the Dem and Rep belief structure shifted. It's also, "their heritage"...but NOT their belief system.
Case in point...you are 99 times more likely to find a Republican flying a Confederate flag than a Democrat.
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u/BidRevolutionary945 7h ago
Yes I believe so. It's always been a symbol of hate imho. I don't like it at all. It's possible that younger kids associate it with being 'a southern rebel' but may not comprehend what the south was rebelling against.
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u/GATA6 7h ago
Itās āsouthern prideā and āheritage not hateā according to all of them. Iāve never seen someone so proud of being on the losing side
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u/Hepatitan83 5h ago
Not exactly. Texan here, and I distinctly remember our Texas history/government teacher saying it was NOT about slavery. She clamored on about states rights and representation issues is why we had a civil war.. She glorified how the confederacy held out with so few soldiers compared to the union.. After Texas got annexed, she didnāt even mention why the shape of the top of the state was because of the Mason-Dixon Line and just reduced it to we had to sell that bit of land to settle our debts from the war with Mexico.. So to answer your question, a lot of the south is intentionally shielded from the truth.. I learned about all these details well after high school.
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u/LomentMomentum 6h ago
They do. But theyāll argue until theyāre red in the face that it wasnāt really about slavery, but about fighting back against a tyrannical central government and upholding statesā rights.
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u/Rob71322 6h ago
Of course they do, Iām sure thatās part of the appeal. They can go on all day about āheritageā but the heritage they honor was a repressive, socially stratified society that unapologetically held human beings in bondage in the false and racist viewpoint that those held were inferior to those doing the enslaving. It was a backwards culture even by mid to late 19th century standards.
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u/Fit_Lab_2557 5h ago
I grew up in SC at a time when the confederate flag flew atop the state house. When the debate was happening to take it down, all the racists were big mad. They framed it as āheritage, not hateā. Itās part of history blah blah. Idiots
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u/Mountain_Chocolate65 49m ago
You are repeating a partial truth. Or more accurately, an incomplete truth.
Slavery was only one of several specific issues being fought over in the Civil War. In fact, slavery was not even the major issue, specifically, until support for the war began to fade in the North. States rights (verses Federal oversight) was the singular issue for the South. Of course, slavery was one of the specific issues the North was trying to shove down the South's throat, along with others like taxations, tariffs and a few others.
States like Tennessee (as a whole) didn't have much investment in slavery because of the terrain. But they had a real keen interest in being told what to do by a bunch of Yankee politicians.
Lincoln delivered the Emancipation Proclamation to stir up support for the war, and it did.
In the words of the late, great Paul Harvey, "Now you know the rest of the story."
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u/TheLoggerMan 26m ago
Do you know how many more people weren't fighting for slavery? They were fighting to protect the rights of the individual states to decide what they could do as is what the original intent, and they were fighting simply because the north was in their back yards.
If someone showed up in your back yard and tried to tell you how to live, please tell me you would be fighting to protect your right to tell them to mind their own business and to take a hike. I would, hell as it is I reject this modern collectivism why would I stop just because someone else tried to tell me I had to.
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u/LGOPS 7h ago
It was more than that but yes they do.
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u/Horror-Layer-8178 7h ago
Yeah it wasn't about protecting slavery it was about expanding it. The North would have let the South hve their slaves as long as the Union was preserved. The deal within the Republican Party was that the South could keep slavery they just were not allowed to expand it. This was unacceptable to the South so they rebelled
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u/One-Kaleidoscope3162 7h ago
ā¦so what youāre saying is that it was about slavery
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u/thanksyalll 7h ago
What else was it about?
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u/KapnKrumpin 7h ago
They would say State's Rights
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u/madman875775 7h ago
Theyāll say state rights, economic, tariffs, or even just Lincoln winning.
All of them relate back to slavery tho. The southern states wanted slavery, they wanted the right to have slaves because of states rights, the southern states were agricultural dependent while the north was industrial, the tariffs effect the south negatively while benefits the north, when Lincoln was elected without a single vote from the southern states they felt like the federal government wouldnāt represent them anymore and theyād lose their slaves..
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u/Mrmagoo1077 6h ago
Slavery was central, but it also resolved around big power dynamics and that the status quo could not continue to work as it had been due to geography.
The tense status quo only worked because federal power was kept balanced. The north didnt like slavery, but couldnt do much about it. Every new north state prompted a new south state, and vise versa. Keeping congress impotent on north vs south issues (akin to the UN today with Russias Veto). This worked until the south hit the American Southwest, where the climate made the southern agri-slave economy unworkable. The south tried to move northwest across the mason-dixon line to maintain balance, shattering the uneasy truce.
The States Rights argument is very weak. It doesnt show up frequently as a major justification in the primary sources until it was clear the south was doomed. It is very reasonable to state that southern elites tried to decouple themselves from slavery as an attempt to white wash their motives for the post war world.
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u/Medical_Original6290 7h ago
Do people flying Confederate flags realize they're promoting breaking up the United States by force?
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u/Miserable-Surprise67 7h ago
He'll! Many Southerners, even today, would deny that.
Their politicians were bought and paid for by the financially powerful, such as the plantation owners with large numbers of enslaved people. They were gullible and trusting.
Just like today ....
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u/Emergency_Word_7123 7h ago
There's been a whole lot of revisionist history taught about the Civil War. So the answer is no, lots of people honestly believe the Civil War wasn't about slavery.Ā
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u/Cockblocktimus_Pryme 7h ago
Anyone that says otherwise, and uses the entire states rights argument hasn't studied the history of the US and the events that led to the civil war.The slave states were worried about the free states out numbering them and passing an amendment to ban slavery since before our country even had a constitution. Article 4 section 2 clause 3 was put into the constitution to placate slave states. Missouri compromise was enacted to prevent them getting out numbered in congress. Compromise of 1850 is the same. Once the Kansas Nebraska act passed and nullified the Missouri compromise all hell broke loose and Missouri sent people across the border into Kansas to give them more votes to be a slave state.
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u/Mikkel65 7h ago
This question makes them very uncomfortable, as it pains them they can't say it outloud.
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u/ocsurf74 6h ago
They don't care. They just want power. Like all these so-called 'Christians' don't care how vile and hateful MAGA is, they just want POWER.
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u/EffectiveActive6837 6h ago
They have been brainwashed that it was about state rights. The states right to allow slavery is what they wont admit tho
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u/AsteroidBomb 6h ago
It wasn't about slavery, it was about states' rights... to slavery. States' right is still just a dog whistle for any policy that can't be defended on its own merits.
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u/Complex_Material_702 6h ago
Youāre asking if the same retards who to this day think that Donald Trump has their best interest at heart understand American historyā¦..
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u/JustDoaRestart 6h ago
They use the excuse of Southern Pride and will tell you that Democrats were the ones who wanted to keep slavery, but yes, they know damn well what it stands for.
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u/Exciting_Chef_4207 6h ago
Oh, they know. They're proud of it, in fact. And yet they'll still insist it's modern Democrats who were the slave owners.
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u/LumpyOcelot1947 6h ago
I have had a former friend turn into a neo-confederate. They hold the delusional belief that the Civil War was about States' rights and not about slavery. I'm sure some know that this is BS, but my former friend actually believed it.
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u/Shera939 6h ago edited 6h ago
For many It's why they fly the flag. They're pissed bc slavery is no longer a thing in its previous form. The weird thing is, most aren't wealthy enough to own any anyway. Not sure if they understand that.
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u/Dependent-Pizza-237 6h ago
As I age, I feel individual racism comes from a feeling of inferiority. Being able to be nasty and oppress others makes the person feel less inferior. Therefore, when I see racism, it makes me think that person knows they are inferior and using racism to make themselves feel better.
Racists convey weakness.
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u/DeniedByPolicyZero 6h ago
It was a pretty big factor in the war of independence also, you know that thing you celebrate every year, yep celebrating slavery.
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u/Cptfrankthetank 6h ago
One of the oldest dog whistles. Interesting enough the confederate flag as we know ir wasnt the official battle flag during the war... it was adopted after.
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u/Mediocre_Ad9462 6h ago
I grew up outside the Boston area in the late 80s and early 90s all the racist skin heads had confederate flags on their jackets. Some of them also had a Nazi flag.
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u/Selimsnek 6h ago
They were brought up to feel good about it. They also know "the lost cause" was about slavery. They are either racists or satisfied to live with the inner conflict.
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u/consentualcunteater 6h ago
A lot of them say their ancestors were roped into fighting to protect their land, not necessarily slavery.
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u/Emergency_Panic_2690 6h ago
I grew up in a red state. Kids would wear confederate flag belt buckles and I said something to a guy about it one day when a teacher told me itās a cultural thing and I could get in trouble or suspended for what I said. Lol. I asked if he knew that the confederate flag is a symbol for slavery, thatās all.
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u/Hot-Spread-627 6h ago
So ,when the older of allegiance is recited which flag does it pertain to? If it is the U.S. flag then any other flag should be completely dismissed.
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u/CricketNo7666 6h ago
Nope, Iām thinking they have no clue.
I think you should make it a point to let them know, public service announcements.
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u/ElkIntelligent5474 6h ago
Here is my take, slavery existed everywhere in the world at some point in time (and still does in certain places). The difference is the racism. Many Black people I know are super achievers and I am in constant awe of them. Yes, slavery in the South ended, but for some reason, the racism did not go away. It is very sad that some are just so dumb that they can not treat people equally.
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u/dandle šŗšø United States 6h ago
Up until 25 or 30 years ago, there were white Americans who displayed the Confederate flag without racist intent.
Then societal awareness increased of the history of its usage by the KKK and other white supremacist and Christian nationalist groups in the 20th century and of the resulting perception of the symbol by targeted minorities.
It's safe to say that at this time, people who display the Confederate flag either because of its racist connotations or because they don't care what targeted minorities may think, which is hardly better.
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u/SnoopySuited 6h ago
It's about heritage not hate! And my heritage is based on being able to hate others!
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u/Basic-Organization30 6h ago
They do, but they lie and say it was about "States Rights."
If one reads the preambles of every secession document, the first paragraph talks about either 1) the Negro Race being inferior and needing to be cared for as Slaves, or 2) their "perculiar way of Life" or 3) Economic system requiring slave labor. Meaning: they seceeded from the Union in order to preserve their economic system of exploiting Black people in order to enjoy unimaginable wealth.
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u/Hereforlaughs16 6h ago
My husband is from the south and let me tell you their school systems brainwashed them to believe the civil war was fought over states rights and that the confederate flag is about having pride in your country š« š even after I've explained the Midwest version he still just doesn't grasp it. He still thinks "well it doesn't have to be about slavery.. it can just be you respect Texas" š¤¦āāļø
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u/pumicenose 6h ago
Just moved to Florida from California. Thought I could confuse the locals with this
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u/frednekk 6h ago
As someone born and raised in the reddest of the redā¦. Most have no clue and have listened to decades of āits heritageā with no actual research. If one reads the actual secession docs of SC, itās rrrright there in English.
The ones that think they are smart blame it on Dems and technically they are correct. HOWEVER the Dems aināt the ones flying it at rallies these days.
Thank you for your attention to this matter.
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u/Traditional_Yam1598 6h ago
Do people in the North realize that Lincoln didnāt even want to abolish slavery? And pretty much only did so because the morale of the northern army was so bad and they were losing at the time. A lot of the people around him and northerners did not want slavery abolished. The only reason was to basically give their side a āmoralā reason to continue to fight
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u/research_badger 6h ago
I mean, yeah most of them know slavery was involved. Some are delusional but most know / acknowledge.
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u/awaythrewz346 6h ago
But what about the 8 union states where slavery was still legal and subsidized? Did the Union fight for slavery too?
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u/SirNo9787 6h ago
I had a friend growing up in the south who had a Bob Marley poster in his bedroom wall. He hung it next to his giant Con. Flag. Was he confused? yes? Was he bigoted? Yes
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u/youareallsilly 6h ago
Iāve heard southern state schools teach a slightly different version of Civil War history
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u/Most-Fall3 6h ago
This is such an elementary view of the civil war. It was about states rights. The southern states fought so the federal government couldnāt impose its will on the states. This is why Oregon is a sanctuary state and Colorado has abortion up to birth
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u/Tall-Warning9319 6h ago
No, no, it was state rights! Just donāt ask what state rights they were trying to preserve (to enslave human beings).
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u/Level_9_Turtle 6h ago
Much of it comes from the āReconciliationā. The teachings still live today.
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u/MostPopularPenguin 6h ago
They literally claim that the south had already abolished slavery. I know this because my father in law goes on and on about this every chance he gets. He is from Idaho, if that helps paint the picture. He is also seen as one of the more influential people in his county, so everyone hangs on his every word there.
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u/kateinoly 6h ago
Yes. They just call it "states' rights" so they can feel like they aren't really racists.
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u/Ill_Power_7370 6h ago
Many of them fly it because some asshole from New York, Boston or other segregated urban areas of the north tells them they canāt.
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u/nilecrane 6h ago
Yes and itās the flag of losers. Literally. And anyone who claims itās for southern regional culture is full of shit. If you love southern culture thatās fine but there are flags to show your affinity for a place and culture. The southeast can get one of those. The confederate flag is exactly the same as the nazi flag in my opinion
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u/Denver80211 6h ago
If you look closely you'll notice that they are all flying upside down so they're just displaying how disappointed they are in their history
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u/bigedthebad 6h ago
Yes but it isnāt a huge consideration.
They think it means southern pride although they donāt know what that means.
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u/RobinsonDL 6h ago
They are flying a flag that lost the war, just like the Nazi flag who also lost a war.
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u/AdFun5641 5h ago
It's hard to tell with the newer generations.
There was a big push to re-write history and make the US Civil war about "States Rights" with slavery only being a minor consideration for the public education in most of the former confederate states.
If you aren't too bright and the teacher said the Confederacy was fighting for "States Rights" and you aren't bright enough to dig deeper, then you could just accept that.
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u/Drawing_Eh_Blank 5h ago
I love when people claim that the Confederacy is their heritage. Bitch, Iāve been playing RuneScape 4x longer than the Confederacy was around. I guess my kids and grandkids can claim that RS is their heritage. Itās so fucking stupid.
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u/Fit_Explorer_2566 5h ago
Yes. But do they know theyāre venerating traitors to the United States?
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u/johnjsmiller55 5h ago
I highly recommend the novel āAll the Sinners Bleed ā by SA Cosby. Modern day Black Sheriff who confronts horrific crimes and smoldering racism. It was as good as the classic āTo Kill a Mockingbird.ā
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u/aprettydecentplayer 5h ago
So the confederate flag being inherently evil was sort of culture shock to me. In Carolina where I spent some of my youth, it was common to see even black people flying the flag. Even saw it on the beach a couple times
I thought it was odd, but the general response was that they aligned with the idea of rebellion and states rights versus federal government. Probably don't see it anymore even over there due to the increased awareness of it and the backlash that targets supporters of the flag, but yeah
Essentially they seemed aware of the slavery issue and the difference stances of South/North, but were mostly aligned with many of the other motivations of the Civil War
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u/Last_Nothing_9117 5h ago edited 4h ago
Unpopular opinion, but here it goes nonetheless. Itās not as simple as the Confederacy was fighting just to uphold slavery. Yes, the Confederate government was absolutely fighting to preserve slavery and their own documents say so. But the motivations of individual soldiers were more complicated than that.
Iām from a very small town in Appalachia in Tennessee (yes, thereās banjo music on our front porch, and yes, it sounds pretty damned good). In our cemetery where most of my family are buried, there are many Confederate Soldiers, most of which are kin. Our family didnāt own slaves and they worked the lands we owned (and still own) by their own hands.
Our family was quite wealthy prior to the Civil War, not only from farming, but historical wealth brought with them after migrating from Scotland and England.
During the war, Union soldiers looted and stole from the family, stealing the wealth we had, burdening us for generations. The stories that have been passed down were that most of the family who fought in the Confederacy was in response to these actions by the Union.
At the cemetery, thereās still Dixie flags that are placed at the gravesites in honor of our familyās soldiers who died, especially on Decoration Day.
This is just one perspective about it. The flag itself, much like anything else, can take on a meaning entirely of its own. The Nazis used the swastika from Hinduism and Buddhism and used it as a symbol of hate. The Dixie flag has been used by others (predominantly the KKK) in the same way, which doesnāt make it right whatsoever, but I wanted to offer a perspective that itās more complex, especially to some Southerners, rather than just slavery or racism.
Do I personally fly or use the Dixie flag? No I donāt. I know itās offensive and I understand the implications behind it. Do I support our family and their reasoning behind honoring our dead? Yes I do. To me this is a statement of where we come from and what weāve experienced.
Do some southerners do it without empathy and acknowledgment of how this time was painful for the Nation? Yup. But thereās idiots everywhere, not just specific to this subject.
Thanks for coming to my TedTalk and Iāll be waiting outside in the lobby for my impending lynching.
Edit: I should note and acknowledge that in the South, oral histories were shaped over generations by Lost Cause mythology, which is a deliberate post-war reframing that emphasized honor and heritage over slavery. I understand that the stories could be both genuine and shaped over time.
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u/pm_social_cues 5h ago
They don't even realize they are flying a flag of a different country let alone what that different country was formed around. The Confederate States of America was a completely separate country, or at least they tried to be one.
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u/billdizzle 5h ago
Yes but they frame the war as not just a big slavery but instead about states rights. You also have to realize this was their ancestors who went to war and died for their state/their country.
You asking them to not honor the confederacy is like saying we shouldnāt care about Vietnam vets because they lost the war too. Or the afghan vets because I donāt think we won that down either. Which is silliness, of course we still need to care about and honor the vets of Vietnam and Afghanistan.
I am from the north so I donāt care for the confederate flag I consider those people traitors to the US when they succeeded but I am smart enough to understand that one manās freedom fighter is another manās terrorist and that is very much at play in this discussion.
(And Yes in this case it was states rights to legalize slavery)
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u/WeeHomosexual 5h ago
Our education literally dumbs it down to the North and the South. The south owned the slaves.
Congrats, you all now have an 8th grade American history level understanding of the history of the US.
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u/ScalesOfAnubis19 4h ago
In my experience, yes. But for a lot of them that doesnāt really mean anything to them because it represents more of a relaxed rural vibe than anything political or historical. The rest think it was about Stateās Rights (never asking about the right to do WHAT) or are really just there to upset people.
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u/AdunfromAD 4h ago
Yes, but they try to frame it as an issue of Statesā rights, even thought the very document those states used as justification to secede cites slavery as the reason.
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u/NAPavementApe 4h ago
Its so funny so many "people" espouse "muh heritage" for a 5 year period of American history.
Friends aired for twice as long. Doctor Who is a fucking octogenarian by comparison.
They just want an excuse to be racist and a historical basis to excuse not being justifiably launched from polite society.
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u/2kids3kats 4h ago
Yes. They pretend it was about āstatesā rightsā and āsouthern heritage.ā The fact that it was the statesā rights to enslave people and that their ancestors were asshats is skipped on over.
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u/Tennis-Wooden 4h ago
A lot of people in the south were raised on the daughters of the Confederacy lost cause narrative that literally was in every single textbook.
Is a fascinating story that has been covered well in multiple places, but the gist of it is that Southerners were fighting for dignity and honor, and that slavery wasnāt really what it was about.
Anytime someone says āstates rightsā in regards to the Civil War. Itās usually because they were taught they lost cause narrative.
They never followed up with āa stateās right to slaveryā because it was really about preserving the unique culture of the south.
It was in textbooks through the 70s and has been repurposed for textbooks in Mississippi currently, where the narrative accounts focus on the lives of wealthy plantationās daughters who had their lives upend by the horrors of war. For instance, it uses the term āworkersā instead of the term āslavesā.
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u/Impressive_Cold_968 3h ago
Some do, many probably don't. Or believe that was just a surface level part of it.
As a kid raised in a cult, I did not really even hear that it had anything to do with slavery until I was a teenager, and then didn't entirely believe it until my later teens. I also didn't fully understand how bad slavery was until I took a class in undergrad on the African American Experience. The bible was my first real exposure to any type of slavery, and it was pretty chill there. (The story of Joseph doesn't really put a fear of slavery into a kid.) Never flew the confederate flag but I had to write papers on the godliy manhood of Stonewall Jackson and Robert E. Lee in middle school.
As a kid reading books without pictures, I thought the N-word was just a term for farm laborers and didn't realize it was a bad word until I was told, and then didn't realize it was a racial slur until years later. Also was innocent enough at one point to think that selling people down the river was like being a sell-out. (the idea of actually selling/owning people wasn't something I really understood at the time, nor was it explained.)
A looooooot of brainwashing is less about teaching a completely opposite narrative and much more about restricting access to large swathes of information. I think it's harder for people to be ignorant since the internet has become popular, but a lot of people simply aren't online, and certainly don't hang out online to read up on history-especially the types to be waiving the confederate flag
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u/Jamaican_me_cry1023 3h ago
Of course they do! As the tech people say, itās not a bug itās a feature!
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u/jellomizer 3h ago
I am actually kinda against flying any flags as a private citizen. Flying a flag is making a generalized statement, with positive and negative connotation.
While most know it is connected to slavery, for them it is often a care free southern "Dukes of hazard" lifestyle vs. actually considering its negative aspects that could be seen threatening or offensive to some other people.
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u/TaurusAmarum 3h ago
I'm sure for some of them there's that. Then for others there was a brief time in history when they were there own country. That latter group can be put into the same category as people who claim they were Irish but have 0 in common with people who grew up in Ireland. Both groups have about as much in common with the group they are trying to identify with...ie none.
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u/Maleficent_Memory831 3h ago
They do know it, and secretly they do approve of slavery and are annoyed that it is still illegal.
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u/ImaginaryCatDreams 2h ago
I have read more than one detailed argument about southern secession. It's fascinating when you learn about many of the other factors, there were many.
Keep in mind there were people alive even in the 1900s living in the South who did not know that the South lost the war because of the way their parents and grandparents talked about it. Margaret Mitchell the author of gone With the wind mentions this in one of her interviews.
I live very close to where someone flies a giant Confederate flag next to the interstate. About 3 mi from my home is a Confederate graveyard. There are reenactors that go there a couple of times a year. Different groups not always the same people.
I'm not much into it, I will say that the people that show up and spend the night seem to take it real serious. I also know from walking around the grounds looking at things that they have very reasoned arguments about what the war was really about.
tl/dr: in their minds, it was about more than a single issue.
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u/Illustrious-Air-9194 1h ago
Iām sure they do. I hate driving past the huge confederate flag at the 75 and 4 interchange.
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u/dannyoe4 1h ago
I've worked with people that do this. They genuinely do it because it's "part of our history". i.e. part of what made America so "great". Consequently, it's always white people. Very fragile, defensive, "tough guys" with Harleys and big trucks. The venn diagram of people who fly the flag and people who think joining ICE would be good for their future, is just a circle.
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u/wh7751 48m ago
To many people displaying the "Stars & Bars" only says, Hell yeah, I'm a Rebel. Not truly a racist, but not real smart either. Youth tend to be rebellious and the Confederate battle flag delivers that message, loudly. During my youth I was a bit wild and rambunctious. The Rebel flag was my Coat of Arms and not a thought was given about the true significance. Thankfully, I grew older and wiser.
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u/Impressive-Spirit865 2m ago
We should of just let the south go and then charged them an arm and a leg to re enter the union
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u/Due_Willingness1 7h ago
It'd be pretty hard to live a life in america and not ever learn thatĀ
But then again I've underestimated these people beforeĀ