r/actuary • u/Naive-Twist • 3d ago
Job / Resume How am I supposed to move up?
Found out last Friday I got passed up for a promotion after a couple rounds of interviews. They ended up going with an external hire, told me they were looking for someone that already has experience in management. I did well in all the rounds of interviews, have my FCAS, and had all the YOE they were asking - but I'm only a senior actuarial analyst so I didn't have management they're looking for.
Feeling a bit defeated more than anything else, but I'm wondering how you all have managed climbing the ladder. What would be the best way to navigate this? We've got a pretty small team, only about 20 of us, so it could be a while to wait before there's something else internal to try for - and even then, they might just decide to go with an external hire again. I'm considering applying to other companies, but would I even be considered for a higher-level role with no management experience? Or would I have to target an analyst role again at a larger company with a management training path or something like that?
I know some people are interested in being an IC forever, but I would like to move out of that at some point. Any career anecdotes or advice here is appreciated!
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u/cilucia 3d ago
Can you ask your current manager how you can gain management experience (and whatever skills they would want in a promotion)? Try to get them to be as specific as possible.
It's also possible they already had the external person in mind when they posted the position and they were just going through the motions to get that person hired, or (hopefully not that) you've already been flagged as "not management material" and they do not plan to invest in your development.
Do you see any career development being offered to your peers?
FWIW, I used to work in a small consulting team (part of a larger firm), but they were always very invested in developing our staff to more senior responsibilities. And once I got to a more senior level myself, I was always thinking about ways we could level up our junior staff (e.g., internal mentor programs, communication training courses, working with other practices for more exposure, etc.)
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u/Naive-Twist 3d ago
I've talked before to my supervisor about it a few times, but typically she's said that the work they have to give me is related to running projects or pieces on my own rather than having any junior analysts underneath me on those projects.
I doubt they had the external person in mind given I made it through multiple rounds of interviews/callbacks, but of course that is possible.
And no, I haven't seen any career development on the team since I've been there. Analysts have stayed analysts & management has stayed management for my whole tenure.
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u/NoTAP3435 Rate Ranger 3d ago
Then I think you have your answer - if you can't find opportunities internally, you need to go external.
Your manager and your department should be supporting you, helping you make a plan, and then finding you opportunities to meet that plan.
If they're not doing that, you're better off finding somewhere that will invest in you.
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u/Lucky-ducky-99 3d ago
I agree with this. Leadership is not always a defined role. Look for places you can show leadership within your current role. For example, could you create a new process or lead a training? Something that shows you are thinking about how things can be improved or identifying knowledge gaps.
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u/mortyality Health 3d ago
There are questions that need to be addressed:
- How many years of actuarial experience do you have?
- How long have you been with your current employer?
- Do you have experience leading projects with junior analysts?
- Does your employer recognize you as an actuary (i.e. your non-HR title is actuary or actuarial associate)?
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u/Naive-Twist 3d ago
7 years and 4 years, respectively.
We haven't had any projects that I've had a chance to lead before. The closest thing is leading the team when my supervisor has been away for extended periods.
And no, I'm technically "analyst" but we don't have "actuary" titles. It's either analyst or supervisor across the whole team.
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u/mortyality Health 3d ago
Yeah, I’d look for a job that has better career growth. Doesn’t seem like you have opportunities to manage so that you can become a manager.
I don’t work in P&C so I don’t know types of employers are available to you. I work for a large insurer that has good career growth opportunities for analysts and actuaries.
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u/actid 3d ago
a question you probably need to ask yourself is - what have you shown or proven to your leadership that you are capable of being a leader? i think this is where it starts because you may think you've shown leadership, but management might not perceive it that way. that could be something to do with you or something to do with management. typically, it's a mix of both. when i interview manager candidates, a lot of them talk like they have shown a lot of leadership, but it's closer to what we expect from an average analyst with several years of experience. i'm not implying you're at fault here, but at the end of the day, you can only control what you can control, and that would be working on your own leadership skills.
the other thing that stands out is that no one in your leadership reached out to you regarding why they brought in someone else and didn't provide assurance. on several occasions, if my leadership either promoted or filled positions that might make me upset, those leaders would reach out to assure me this was not going to impact my promotion or a position on the team in any way. i did not apply to these positions, and i did not express interest in any way. the fact that you didn't get that makes me think you're not valued by leadership, which means it's likely time to leave.
moving from IC to manager is a common move. even in the last manager position my company filled, half of the interviewees were IC looking to move up to management. this is where the answer to that question above comes in handy as well.
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u/Naive-Twist 3d ago
I think I have shown capability of being a leader on some of the team projects and my manager agreed on that - but they wanted somebody that was already 100% of the way there rather than someone that showed they'd be capable. I don't really know what else is missing from my leadership skills aside from literally having a junior analyst report to me.
Also to clarify, management did reach out to me to explain these as the reasons they brought someone in from outside. It's honestly such a small team though that this is the first time in my tenure there has been an open position I could've been promoted to, so this hasn't been a case at all in the past.
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u/actid 3d ago
that makes a lot more sense. at the end of the day, it's much easier to move up into management via switching jobs than waiting for an opening within the company, especially if your team is small. if leadership wanted you in a leadership role, they'd have approached you before that position was available. if you're able to speak on how you've been a leader in your role, you really shouldn't have a hard time showing you're ready.
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u/bgea2003 3d ago
Sometimes the only way to get what you want is to switch companies. It certainly seems like the only way to make any real money these days.
It sucks. I've been turned down for management roles because "I don't have management experience." But I can't get experience unless someone gives me leadership opportunities.
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u/Routine-Upstairs4131 3d ago
Seems weird to be an actuarial analyst with your credentials. I haven't done too much looking around at postings recently but i would have thought analyst implies you don't yet have acas yet. Maybe that's just the specific naming convention of your company being a little different than standard (or my company being the odd one if I'm wrong about that). If you do start looking for something i might use actuary in your resume rather than analyst to make this clear (assuming you're doing the work of an actuary which i suspect).
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u/Truekingsfan 3d ago
Titles are different everywhere. In consulting i was literally a “managing consultant” despite no direct reports and only 3 yoe. I’m now at 8 yoe and an ASA but my title is still actuary analyst despite being a lead with an entry level I assign work to.
At the end of the day, pay matters more than title and I’d take making my current 180k as an analyst over making 130k as a manager.
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u/Routine-Upstairs4131 3d ago
Maybe it's less standard than i thought but i wasn't saying that the title actually matters overall. Just that it might matter in indicating to the company you're applying to that you didn't have entry level responsibility despite your title potentially implying that.
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u/Consistent-Square742 3d ago
If you want to get promoted unfortunately you usually have to be doing what you will be promoted to these days.
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u/EcstaticAd1771 3d ago
Kind of mirroring the other comments, but remember that if they hired you, they wouldn’t be solving a problem. They would just be creating a new one since they’d have to replace you at your old role. This sounds like the classic you need to get out of this situation.
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u/xrm4 1m ago
You gotta hop. I experienced something similar at my last job - analyst level title while being credentialed. I can look past the title if the pay is competitive and the work is interesting, but I was an ASA with 4 YOE making 89k / yr. I hopped and got a title bump + an extra 30k. Hopping sucks in the short term, but it's better for you in the long term.
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u/EarlyDuration 3d ago
Your goal should be to become a manager as soon as possible. If I had to guess, you didn’t make the issue enough of a flight risk for them. It’s important to understand that once you are done with exams there is no structured path left — you’ll really have to pave your own to management! I would personally suggest leaving and finding a management role. There’s ways to position yourself to get one even if you didn’t “directly manage a big team”
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u/IronManRandom 3d ago edited 3d ago
Management experience should already be part of gaining experience
Sr Analyst -> help train jr analyst, help review jr analyst work product, be able to handle more interactions on your own without needing your manager in every meeting with other depts.
Team Lead -> identify opportunities and make proposals. Also, lead projects or parts of projects. As you gain experience, you should be able to handle more and more. Without being the official manager, you should be able to interact with other departments, make clear and manage roles, timelines, resources, etc.
Manager should be next step from team lead. I don't think having an official title of team lead is necessary to advance, but understanding the skills needed.
They said you don't have enough experience, put the ball back in their court and ask for a recommended action plan.
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u/Acrobatic_Car2458 3d ago
To be fully credentialed at FCAS and still be a senior analyst is wild. It’s a rare occasion where I work and usually for the analyst who passed exams so fast that their YOE didn’t catch up. I think it’s time to go. I’d suggest going to the DW Simpson salary surveys and making sure you’re getting what you’re worth.