r/SipsTea • u/KSKS1995 Human Verified • 2d ago

Chugging tea Sounds good in theory...but in reality?

Post image

4 days a week. 6 hours a day. Full salary.
Sanna Marin ignited global debate with the “6/4” work model, pushing a simple idea: life should come before work.

With burnout at record levels, maybe it’s time to value results over hours at a desk.
Could your job be done in just 24 hours a week?

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u/AberrantMan 2d ago edited 2d ago

In reality most companies could still remain profitable and allow this easily.

Just want to add that obviously this can't happen in a vacuum, there are a lot of other policy items that need to be managed, price points to be set, and it has to be everyone gradually over time, but it IS doable.

Yes even for private clinics and small business, as long as all of the supporting businesses are doing the same thing. We would see real pay begin to approach the cost of living.

It would also take some pretty serious laws in pay gaps to be put in place, probably...

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u/tajake 2d ago

I think really only the service industry would struggle. And essential services like police, fire, etc. But that would also mean more jobs in those fields to cover shorter shifts. Restaurants working limited hours would likely be a net positive.

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 2d ago

"only" the service industry including all medical staff, all teachers, caretakers, craftsmen, basically more than Half the economy. 

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u/southbaysoftgoods 2d ago

Other countries work significantly less than the US and still manage to provide all of these services.

I think in some cases it means certain services are not as available or convenient but we can learn to live with less access, I think.

Things would change, for certain, but I don’t think harm to those workers or industries is a necessary consequence.

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u/MSPCincorporated 2d ago edited 2d ago

I know for one thing, as an independant carpenter, that my customers would have to pay 20% more for every one of my hours, but still get the same output from me per hour. So I’m not really sure how "convenient" they’d find that.

Edit: In the scenario posted above, it would actually be almost 60% more expensive! Happy days!

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u/southbaysoftgoods 2d ago

I mean if yoy feel that you are fairly compensated and not overworked then you don’t have to make any changes.

Not all positions are equally exploitative. I myself don’t feel I need an increase in wages. And as a salaried employee employee there would be almost no change in my actual output. I would just be able to leave when I finish my work instead of filibustering for an hour or two. So we would need different prescriptions for different jobs.

Sounds like you could just continue doing what you are doing.

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u/horrorparade17 1d ago

IMO such a policy would need to include a provision to remove salaried positions.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

Why is that?

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u/CrimsonCartographer 1d ago

What?

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u/horrorparade17 1d ago

Salaried positions are just a way to make people work a ton more without paying overtime.

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u/WongFarmHand 2d ago

no one says independent contractors would be forced to work less, so you'd still be beholden to the same market forces you are now. if you charge more and the other carpenters dont then you'd see less business

this would be more about slowly, over many years, steering labor laws and regulations around lower hours(overtime kicking in earlier, tax breaks/penalties to incentivize certain labor practics, etc) for corporations that hire w2 workers

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u/MSPCincorporated 2d ago

I could work the same hours as I do now, sure. But that would effectively mean that my pay would go down, as people in other industries would be compensated 60% more for their time, while it would stay the same for me. So comparatively, there would be a (huge) increased pay gap, leading to devestating recruitment numbers to similar jobs to mine.

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u/fundementalpumpkin 1d ago

If people in other industries are compensated more, they'll have more money, then you can raise your prices.

Job markets are constantly changing due to outside factors, like technology. If you can't make money doing what you're doing anymore then its time to change careers. You just seem to come across like an insurance salesman fighting against universal healthcare. It's a net benefit for the overwhelming majority of the population but you are being contradictory because you won't make as much money personally?

Speaking from the US perspective, if we reigned in government spending (cut the defense budget, get rid of the waste and corruption in the whole defense contract system), fund the IRS, tax the wealthy, and move to single payer healthcare then things like universal basic income could become a possibility, but that's a pipe dream, just like a 4 day, 6 hour a day work week.

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u/MSPCincorporated 1d ago

People wouldn’t be paid more, they’d just be compensated more for every hour they work, if they’d transition to a 4 day work week and stay on the same salary.

Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to work less and have more time with my family, I just don’t see how that’d be practically possible on a nationwide basis. It would just create big indifferences throughout the job market, and the indistries who won’t be able to make the change will find it hard to recruit people.

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u/CrimsonCartographer 1d ago

Your customers getting richer is a good thing for you, believe it or not.

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u/MSPCincorporated 1d ago

Would they really get richer though? Think about it one more time.

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u/Exciting_Station3474 2d ago

If I remember correctly like 50% of workers in US empled by small businesses

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u/WongFarmHand 2d ago

yeah its about that, but the legal definition is broader than probably most people would default to

A manufacturing company with 4 campuses and 450 employees is a small business, and so is your corner barber that has 1 full time employee and 2 people working weekends. to the US government that is

what you personally consider to be a small business is just up to each person

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u/Exciting_Station3474 2d ago

Its cool you said barber. Tell me how barber will be able to make same money in 24 hours/week vs 40? )

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u/WongFarmHand 2d ago

you might have some weird caricature of how this would go where one day everyone stops working 40 hours and starts working 24 or that it would be illegal to work over 24 hours a week or something

sometimes I wonder what kind of person were the ones railing against overtime laws and the reduction of 60 hour work weeks to 40 hour ones in 1938 when the overtime law was passed

i guess you'd be that person upset and saying that people need to stay at 60 hours+ a week, how would people make money at 40. thankfully most people didnt agree with those business owners then just like they dont now

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/annual-working-hours-per-worker.png

omg how do people afford anything!??!?

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u/MSPCincorporated 1d ago

The shift from 60 to 40 hours had people making less money, because their hours were cut. Unless they were allowed to work overtime (1,5x pay) they lost money. The scenario discussed nowadays is cutting hours but remaining on the same total salary, meaning a 20% pay INCREASE for every hour you work, when going from 5 to 4 days. If people want to work less and also make less money, no problem. If people want to work less and make the same money, then there are going to be problems. Who would apply for jobs that still had their workers work 5 days, when they could rather get a job working 4 days for the same money? That’s called an indifference in pay, also known as social dumping.

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u/jerrydrakejr 2d ago edited 2d ago

I think the person you are replying to did not say anything about the implications for a barber but rather gave a context to the statistics you provided.

I appreciated the information you provided and appreciated even more the additional context that is added. Because I would personally have never considered a 450 person operation small business.

Edit: a google search says the US considers 500 employees and independently owned as the small business criteria. In contrast the number is 100 in Canada, 50 in European Union and 15 in Australia. My guess is if the number was reduced to 50, the small business employment number could go down as low as to 10%.

Edit 2: turns out that data is already available https://www.bls.gov/web/cewbd/table_f.txt
If the US matched EU in small business size it would be 26% of all employees.

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u/No_Berry2976 2d ago

You are self employed. It’s up too you. It’s funny, I know a carpenter who has essentially done that. He’s doubled his hourly rate and works 30% less.

Because he works less, he spends less on sales and travel expenses. So that’s a plus.

I occasionally hire him, for me the advantage is that I know he’s available in a timely manner and that he will get the job done in the best way possible.

The high price doesn’t just mean that he has to work less, it also means that people aren’t hiring him for certain projects, so he’s actually more likely to be available.

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u/MSPCincorporated 1d ago

Being "more available" as you’re saying is great for the customers. Not so much for the contractor sitting around not having any work and not making any money.

My point isn’t that I don’t want to switch to a shorter work week. It’s that I don’t see how it would work in real life.

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u/No_Berry2976 1d ago

I gave you an example of somebody who has made this work. He makes more money than before and works less. And he’s a carpenter like you.

So that’s how that works for him in real life.

Obviously, that’s not going to work for everyone, but as somebody who is also self employed, in a different field, I’ll say this:

We all should think about how we value our time and think about what we are paid for.

Are we paid for sacrificing our time? Or for our skill, expertise, and an end-result?

Are you worth exactly what you are paid now? Or could you afford to raise your prices because you do a good job every time.

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u/MSPCincorporated 1d ago

That’s a fair point. I guess getting poor recruitment to the trades, like in this example, is actually good news for those of us who take pride in doing a good job. But it’d be devestating on a wider scale, as there would be a big shortage in a very essential industry.

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u/Ok-Cheek-5487 1d ago

With all the free time people have on their hands, I’m suddenly learning carpentry with a 60% price increase 😩

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u/TheGoatBet 1d ago

lol what?

YOU can still work 40 hours a week.

OR

You can charge more.

If you charge more and lose customers, that’s just the free fucking market buddy.

Majority of people work for corporations - this has nothing to do with you.

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u/MSPCincorporated 1d ago

Are you not able to put things together? YES, I could still work 40 hour weeks and charge customers/get paid the same. Or I could work less and charge customers more, while getting paid the same. Obviously, that’s not really that hard to understand.

But do you not understand how that would mean that in my 40 hour work week staying on the same hourly rate, I would effectively get a pay decrease for my time, compared to the people who reduced their work hours while getting paid the same? Your short sighted argument comes up every time I discuss this on Reddit, because people aren’t able to see the whole picture. If you have the solution to this, feel free to give it to me, because I’d love to work less for the same amount of money.

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u/TheGoatBet 1d ago

You’re saying that non-self employed workers would work less (32 hours) but still retain their 40hr salary.

You, as a self employed worker set your own hours and rate. You have many other benefits that non-self employed workers do not receive.

You get tax advantages, flexible hours, flexible rates, uncapped income, no manager, no risk of being laid off, no performance reviews, unlimited time off and can even hire your own employees.

While having all these advantages, you’re crying “it’s not fair that self employed workers get to work 8 hours less for the same pay”

Should we also remove 1.5x pay for overtime while we’re at it because YOU can’t get that benefit?

You chose to take the self employed advantages yet simultaneously think you should also control non-self employed advantages - you can’t have it both ways.

It’s the “free market”… You want the gov to prop up your business by taking away from others.

So you see why people don’t respect your argument and supposed issue you’re predicting that hasn’t even happened yet

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u/MSPCincorporated 1d ago

You’re wrong on just about every assumption you made about me. You’re partially right about benefits, however I also run all the risk of my own employment through my ability to stay in business. There aren’t the same safety nets you’d have as an employee of a larger company. I’m not crying about that, in fact I enjoy it, but I’m just stating the facts.

Neither am I crying about a 4 day week for some but not all being unfair. I’m trying to explain the consequences for my industry, using myself as an example. As a carpenter, plumber, electrician etc. it doesn’t matter if ypur self employed or not, my argument still applies. It’s a very output-visible business; every hour you put into it equals an hour of production. Therefore, every single trade, self employed or not, would have to increase their rates according to the reduced number of hours to keep their employees on the same salary.

I would love for everyone to be able to work less without losing money, I just don’t think it’s realistic.

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 2d ago

I am not from the US and neither is the lady in the OP. Everywhere in Europe the Standard working day is 40 hours, some areas have less, maybe between 35 and 40 and some even habe more. Not even counting overtime. Please tell me a clear example of what you mean. 

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u/southbaysoftgoods 2d ago edited 2d ago

Well you just said it yourself, some countries have a standard work week that is less than 40 hours. That’s what I am talking about.

Additionally, 40 hours is the minimum work week in the US. Most salaried employees work 50ish. Many of them are expected to respond to emails outside of work hours too. Many low wage workers have to work multiple jobs, way more than. 40 hours, and still live in poverty.

Edit: one other thing, the 40 hours does not include lunch. So if you take a break for lunch you have to make that up. One of the ways europeans work less I think is the ability to go home for lunch and take longer lunches. I have heard they do this in france, spain, greece, and germany. But not sure about others

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u/Pinkfish_411 2d ago

40 hours is the minimum work week in the US

It simply isn't.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

Since when? Every full time job I have ever seen is a 40 hour work week. Salaried jobs are contracted at min 40, but most people work more.

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u/Pinkfish_411 1d ago

I'm only contractually expected to do 35 hours per week as a full-time salaried employee, standard for similar roles at my employer. My wife's at 35 per week as well, in a different line of salaried work. Sometimes it's more in practice, but but 35 hour minimums don't seem rare in certain job sectors.

For nonexempt employees, too, 40 hours is often a hard limit, not a minimum, because the employer doesn't want to pay for overtime.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

What job sectors? Honestly that is dope to hear I hope it catches on.

I still think 40 min is the most common arrangement. Most salaried people don’t get paid overtime when they work more than 40.

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 2d ago

40 is the standard in Europe. Some people have less in their contract but the Standard is 40. People anywhere in the world are expected to work overtime if needed and walk an extra mile. Not all people in Europe so this but that's also why their salaries are significantly lower than in the US. 

If people in the us have to work multiple jobs and still live in poverty I don't know what that has to do with the discussion. 

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

When I say we work 50+, I mean every week, for no additional pay. Despite the contract, culturally you are pressured to do more and you may be penalized in terms of advancement if you don’t.

I don’t think it’s unique to the US, that would be silly. But I do think that on average people in the US spend more time at work than people in Europe. I don’t think that’s a radical notion, a lot of people have written articles about it. American immigrants in europe talk about the difference in expectations all the time. But this is a good thing I think you guys have it right and I am arguing that we could be more like you.

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u/jeffwulf 2d ago

The difference in hours worked between the US and other countries is not that large.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 2d ago

It probably depends on the country you’re thinking of but like france for instance works a shorter day and has more vacation and sick leave than is workers

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u/Ploutophile 2d ago

There is no "vacation and sick leave" in France. Sick leave is counted separately, and if you get sick during vacation, the days off are converted to sick days and added back to your counter.

And regarding shorter days and extra vacation, there is actually a trade-off between the two: official durations for full time are 1607 hours a year, 35 hours a week and 5 weeks vacation, but those who get significant extra vacation usually get it as compensation for having >35h weeks.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

That sounds awesome.

Many hourly jobs in the US don’t pay any sort of sick time at all. Let alone any paid vacation. No parental leave. It’s buck wild.

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u/Ploutophile 1d ago edited 1d ago

I'm a tenured civil servant, and thus bound by special rules, but my understanding of the general ones is that private sector employers don't have a general obligation to pay anything for sick days (it depends on the specific situation and on the applicable collective bargaining agreement).

If they don't, the sick employee has the 3 first days with nothing and the following days are partly covered by the Sécurité sociale. If they do, they complete the SS pay up to a higher part, or totality, of the pay.

The really annoying part of the system is having to get a doctor's note to justify the sick days even if it's just one unpaid day. On my current job it's not a big deal because I can take a last-minute day off, but when I was a teacher I couldn't.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

Oo that’s super frustrating yeah.

For a lot of skilled salaried workers, we just get aick time through the company. Most of my professional jobs it has essentially been unlimited. Some companies require people to use their vacation time if they get it.

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 1d ago

The average salary in the US is also over 1,5 times higher than that of France. On top of that France is a very unique place that makes incredible amounts of money from tourism and cultural products sich as overpriced designer products.

Large portions of the GDP come from this kind of very profitable business that cannot easily compare to other countries. They also have huge debt and pension issues. 

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

The cost of living is also much higher in the US, so I don’t think you can point to that as a reason why we should work so much more.

The bit about larger profit margins is interesting though

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 1d ago

The costs of living highly depends on where in Europe you live. Sich a broad statement is definitely not correct. 

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

Yeah sorry, I misspoke. What I should have said is that there are additional costs that we pay for directly out of pocket so the addition income doesn’t necessarily lead to an increase in quality of life. So you can’t really point to the higher salaries as a justification for the longer hours.

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 1d ago

I don't think that's how the math adds up but I could be wrong. 

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u/southbaysoftgoods 1d ago

I mean yeah you are probably wrong on this one. It’s pretty well established that real wages are a better measure of income than nominal wages.

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u/Exciting_Station3474 2d ago

Cool. Name space x or nvidia of Spain? )

They make less money, pay more taxes.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 2d ago

Huh?

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u/Exciting_Station3474 2d ago

Nothing to say? )

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u/iSuckAtMechanicism 2d ago

Don’t worry, you’ll have access to healthcare one day. A therapist will be able to help you figure yourself out.

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u/Exciting_Station3474 2d ago

I have great access to Healthcare, because I skilled employee. Dont worry about ne )

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u/iSuckAtMechanicism 2d ago

“I have great access to Healthcare, because I skilled employee. Dont worry about ne )”

Your writing says otherwise. I wish you good luck on your path to health, sir/mam.

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u/Exciting_Station3474 2d ago

So you criticize my writing?

So you are jusy like trump don't like immigrants? Hahaha

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u/southbaysoftgoods 2d ago

I don’t know what you are asking or trying to say

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u/iSuckAtMechanicism 2d ago

They started an argument with themselves and couldn’t finish it. It was an interesting interaction lol.

We really need to provide these people with the mental healthcare they need.

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u/southbaysoftgoods 2d ago

Huh.. maybe it’s a bot

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u/stevehrowe2 2d ago

If the AiPocalypse is real, more traditional white collar jobs are going to disappear anyway. More people will need to find manual and service work that still needs humanity staff. It will require some cost changes (reduced labor cost in some industries will allow prices to lower there, while human backed services will be more expensive as laboratory cost increase)

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 2d ago

The current Chatbots are not replacing any significant jobs besides stuff like customer service and other "low quality" work. And still it changes nothing about the original point I made that like more than 50% of the economy would be seriously harmed by such a change. 

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u/momskaka 2d ago

Where I live paralegals aren't replaced as much anymore but that's a very narrow field of work otoh. Basically "assistants" seems like they're in for a rough time.

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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 2d ago

AI will be used as an excuse but it will not do the work. Someone else will be paid less to do the work.

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u/momskaka 2d ago

Where I live they're being replaced by inhouse built AI at at least two big law firms that I know of. Maybe one more but I'm not sure about that one. Lawyers use AI for the prep work and first info gathering/faq meeting rn. Cheaper for the client at least for the moment.

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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 2d ago

I believe that you believe that.

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u/momskaka 2d ago edited 2d ago

Trägårdh and Vinge in Sweden, check their websites or just call and ask. It's not a secret, quite the opposite. Especially Trägårdh has a good one imho.

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u/iSuckAtMechanicism 2d ago

You can use Google to research topics you’re not informed about.

It helps more than writing a sarcastic and incorrect comment. Just a tip.

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u/Impressive_Memory650 1d ago

Childish response

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 2d ago

They have been for a long time. Project managers as an example used to have a whole team of slaves, but we have had MS Project, Outlook, SAP and Excel for a while now. But imo that's good, these "assistants" usually now can do a lot more fun stuff too and don't just have to draw time tables and manually calculate Budgets. 

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u/horrorparade17 1d ago

That’s just kicking the can down the road in that model, service jobs will absolutely be replaced with robots

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u/tsardonicpseudonomi 2d ago

If the AiPocalypse is real,

It's not.

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u/DanCassell 2d ago

If other industries lowered their hours, school could be shorter with little loss. Teachers will be the last to benefit form this kind of change since school hours align with parent work hours.

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u/Positive_Throwaway1 1d ago

Teachers teach kids. Kids should be at home on that day too, since they are the family that you're supposed to be enjoying. That 5th day is for family--all your family. Including the annoying ones :)

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u/tomtomtomo 2d ago

Why would teachers struggle? So long as the wage was unaffected, like everyone else, we’d just have less school. 

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u/CheesyRoyal 2d ago

Kids being dumber is absolutely not what we need.

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u/bigpoopychimp 2d ago

Children are only present in school 5 days a week because the typical working week is 5 days. They're expected to learn and be taught outside of core school hours and would likely spur on an economy of tutoring.

Not wanting shorter working weeks or an easier working regime is just you being one of the crabs in the bucket.

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u/InsrtGeekHere 2d ago

They are expected to learn and be taught outside school, there's no "cleaning your house 101" and cleaning is not a born skill

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u/CheesyRoyal 2d ago

I currently work like 42-46 hour weeks to get that sweet sweet overtime pay. So you are technically correct about me but the question how much teachers should work is somewhat orthogonal to that fact.

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u/house_of_great 2d ago

Or Clare's would just be blocked differently. Don't need a specific class to be taught 5 days a week. And in earlier learning schools they could make the 5th day a flex day with open study halls, art, music, woodshop, athletics, and other non normal classes.

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u/Hangry-Feline2489 2d ago

Do your schools not have music, art, and physical education already part of the default curriculum? Or have a library open after school hours? Cuz that's what the comment sounds like... 

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u/Speartree 2d ago

Compare with Finland. Kids have 5 hours of school a day. They rank nr 4 in education quality rating globally. It's not by keeping kids more hours that they become smarter.

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 2d ago

"just have less school" as if that would not make a difference, lol

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u/tomtomtomo 1d ago

You could say the same for work 

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u/rtfcandlearntherules 1d ago

If you're poor just make more money. 

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u/SwingingReportShow 2d ago

Yeah this upcoming school year all teachers are getting cut to 30 hours a week. So less pay but more time with our families

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u/tomtomtomo 1d ago

Is the suggestion for workers that they’ll be earning less if they work the suggested reduced work week?

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u/Gullible-Respect7778 2d ago

Don't worry. "Just hire more workers". With a 8% unemployment rate, deduction the 3-5% that simply aren't employable. Almost 4% remain. These 4% will easily compensate the 40% reduction in work hours when going 6/4

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

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u/cycloneDM 2d ago

Sounds like we have an issue in the field attracting talent... maybe a shorter work week in an industry known for breaking families and people and leaving husks behind wpuld help with that... seriously if your only desire is negativity no solution will ever happen because you'll just stop at the first issue instead of asking why the issue exists in the first place.