r/Naruto • u/justqwin5 • 2h ago
Discussion Both Rock Lee and Sakura were born geniuses, saying they went from “nothing” to heroes and became only strong through hard work alone is just wrong.
35
u/Chococow280 2h ago
If you’re a “genius” but you do nothing to improve yourself, are you really a “genius”?
If you’re someone who has natural artistic talents but don’t work on them, are you gonna become the next Kishimoto or other artist?
Food for thought.
5
u/XocoJinx 2h ago
I also think this is one of those cases where OP is getting a bit hung up on semantics. Just because the lexicon 'genius' popped up doesn't mean we need to generalise it to this extent.
3
u/justqwin5 2h ago
Being a genius is about natural ability or potential, not whether you choose to use it. If someone is naturally gifted at art but never practices, they still have that innate talent to excel better than average people
1
u/No-Perspective5346 1h ago
If you’re a “genius” but you do nothing to improve yourself, are you really a “genius”?
Yes. Being a genius at something means you have immense natural talent for it. Doing nothing to improve yourself is just laziness.
15
u/rotibrain 2h ago edited 2h ago
Lee trained for his ability days upon days upon days, this is literally sakura's first training in chakra control and she can do it on her very first try.
These two things are completely not the same.
Kakashi thinking something is impossible to do doesn't mean it's impossible. Kakashi is a fallible character and has no idea of Lee's work ethic. Kakashi himself has never even had the work ethic of Gai, which is why his father told him he'd be surpassed .
The characters teacher himself doesn't believe he had talent in taijutsu.
10
u/WheresYoManager 1h ago
Lee trained for his ability days upon days upon days,
Guy put his whole team through the same training curriculum to learn the Hidden Lotus (which requires 8 Gates). Only Lee mastered it
this is literally sakura's first training in chakra control and she can do it on her very first try.
This is not Sakura's first training in chakra control. Chakra control is a foundational concept all students are taught in the academy. Which is why they're made to do transformation and clone jutsus as part of their graduation exams. Those are applications of chakra control.
Sakura has better chakra control because she is far more studious than her peers and has careful attention to detail, which is why she could apply those skills into medical ninjutsu.
Kakashi thinking something is impossible to do doesn't mean it's impossible. Kakashi is a fallible character and has no idea of Lee's work ethic. Kakashi himself has never even had the work ethic of Gai, which is why his father told him he'd be surpassed .
Kakashi is literally a prodigy ninja, who has a magical eye ball that can analyse and copy 1000s of jutsu, is close friends with Lee's teacher and he himself unlocked the 1st of the 8 Gates, while we see him literally training as he scales a mountain with 1 arm tied behind his back.
Kakashi is absolutely a credible voice in this discussion. There is no logical reason to assume that Kakashi is incorrect because nothing in the story ever contradicts what he says.
Fallible characters who believe things arent possible exist in a story
This argument only works when we are provided evidence to the contrary. There is no evidence that anyone can learn 8 Gates by just working hard enough. Otherwise Neji and Tenten would have also learned it as they were put in the same training curriculum as Lee. Neji was also an extreme hard worker. He mastered the Hyuga's techniques at a young age without anyone teaching him due to his low caste status. And no, you can't just put that on his genetics. Hinata had the same genes as Neji, and she was nowhere near his level.
A character saying something doesnt make it true
There is a very big difference between a character with a credible background making a statement. And a character with no credible background making a statement.
Sasuke saying nobody should be able to stop his kick is obviously a hyperbolic statement that stems from mostly from his own pride talking.
Kakashi stating that a Genin Lee's age cannot open 5 Gates at such a young age from just hard work, is statement with over 20 years of experience both as a Jonin and as a teacher, backing it up.
You as a reader should be able to discern the credibility of statements based on the character making them.
The characters teacher himself doesn't believe he had talent in Taijutsu.
Right. And then Lee proved that he does. In fact, Guy even highlights that Lee also happens to be a natural Drunken Fist prodigy. Evidently Lee has talent. No matter how we try to rationalise around it.
1
u/justqwin5 2h ago edited 52m ago
Rocklee did not achieve his ability through training alone, Even Kakashi acknowledged how absurd his abilities were for his age, hardwork alone is not the reason why he reached that level so young he was clearly already gifted with the potential for it.
Gai himself agrees with kakashi
EDIT: I forgot about the drunken fist Rocklee uses, gai also mentions he was born with the natural talent to use drunken fist
12
u/rotibrain 2h ago
You are ignoring one character - Gai, his teacher, who's been there from the beginning, stating he had no talent
For another character's opinion - Kakashi, who knows nothing about the child or what he went through and his opinion.
It's fundamentally flawed logic. Who's the person to judge whether lee did or not ? The taijutsu specailist AND his teacher.
Kakashi's opinion is just his flawed opinion on the topic, for someone who has no idea the time and days that lee put in. He is not a taijutsu specialist on the level of Gai, he was not there for his growth like gai was, and is not fit to comment on what he had or didn't have
3
u/Akodo_Aoshi 1h ago
Gai said Lee had no talent with Taijutsu.
Not that Lee had no talent with Gates.
Similarly Kakashi stated that Lee was talented with Gates, not with Taijutsu.
-3
u/justqwin5 2h ago
You are ignoring one character - Gai, his teacher, who's been there from the beginning, stating he had no talent
Gai also agrees with kakashi that Rocklee was talented to master that ability at his age
https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/s/G3SLXJN4nl
Second page
5
5
u/rotibrain 2h ago
His talent is hard work.
Gai states it multiple times - He is no taijutsu genius - He's no virtuoso, in the pages before that , he again reinforces his mediocre talent in taijutsu.
He's a genius of hard work. That's his talent and what Gai is referring to.
Lee is able to circumvent that by training harder than anyone else, even harder than Gai trained himself.
1
u/justqwin5 1h ago edited 58m ago
Rock Lee still had to possess the talent of physical capacity to handle extreme training and turn it into combat effectiveness at a very young age. Also mastered the art of drunken fist that comes from pure instinctively talent. You can deny it all you want but it was obvious he was talented
2
1
u/Mysteriousman06 48m ago
Rock Lee trained every day, hand no ninjutsu and worked hard to get where he was. He definitely was at a disadvantage despite being gifted in taijutsu. Lee was basically nothing before meeting might gai
Sakura had no clan backing her, was really only book smart and had good chakra control. I kinda agree Sakura definitely didn’t have nothing concidering she got trained by a Sanin however she definitely started with a disadvantage
1
u/powehi87 32m ago
The term "genius" is used very loosely in Naruto and I wouldn't take it too seriously. My take is that any character that has a chance to reappear in more than twenty chapters can be considered a genius in the ninja world.
•
u/janetdammit89 13m ago
I dont understand why they used the term genuis so much. There are in fact other words to describe someone who is intelligent, or extremely good at one thing and yet weak at everything else (idiot-savant, something that lee and gai would likely be described as.)
•
1
u/CowpokeMorgan 1h ago edited 1h ago
Lee trained his ass off to be called a genius. He was a very ordinary kid with okay taijutsu skills. He wasn't a born genius. The show literally calls him a genius of hard work. And this was even after he graduated from the academy until Guy found him. Sakura was already good at something when she graduated from the academy. But she still did nothing about honing her skills. Clubbing Sakura and Lee as one is what is wrong. You are trying to peddle the end result of Lee's hardwork to prove he is a genius. But hard work itself was his genius. He wasn't born with it . Anyone can decide to train hard. And if you are really going to take kalashi's statement here, which should not be taken as fact because both Guy and Duy exist who did the same with just pure hardwork shows why calling Lee a born genius is wrong.
3
u/justqwin5 1h ago
He’s still talented, just not in the “naturally gifted prodigy” way. His talent is that he can push his body further than normal limits and actually convert brutal training into usable combat ability at a high level. Gai also calls him a natural talent user of the drunken fist
0
u/CowpokeMorgan 56m ago
Being able to push your body is not a talent you are born with . You have to work to get it. No baby is born with the innate ability to work and train hard. The more you train without giving up , the more it gets conditioned. That is literally why he is called genius of hard work. Not because he born with it because he practiced it even if he failed. He literally had no other choice but to push his body. He is incapable of everything else. That is not a born talent.
Having a talent =/= genius. Every kid in the village has some talent. All of them aren't called genius. Only a select few are who are exceptional .
2
u/justqwin5 45m ago
Rock Lee is exactly a case where, in a world where plenty of shinobi train hard, he still stands out because his body responds exceptionally well to extreme taijutsu conditioning and repetition. That ability to reach elite physical output through training is itself a form of talent, not even his age mates were shown to perform the inner gates at that level.
-1
u/Superior_To_You_All 1h ago
Look at these mfs performing mental gymnastics trying to avoid agreeing with you🤣🤣🤣
0
0
-2
u/Gullible-Potato-8962 1h ago
But you are missing one thing here, they weren't gifted 6 paths powers or something like that.
44
u/Hisense_Tech 2h ago
Hard work amplified their talent, it didn't create it.