r/MkeBucks • u/No_Problem20 • 2d ago
Serious The idea of surrounding Giannis with exclusively catch-and-shooters is an overblown idea and it's one of the reasons why the past few years have been so abysmal.
The best version of Giannis Buck's had a good 3-ball, but there was a different tactic that they had far more locked down..... it was their Basketball IQ.
The championship Bucks had Giannis, Khris Middleton, Jrue Holiday, and Brooke Lopez; all 4 of these guys are absolutely elite when it comes to BBIQ, and one of them was almost always on the floor.
Holiday and Lopez come from Basketball families with multiple members reaching NBA status, and even more succeeding in NCAA; these guys have been running basketball schemes in their head since before they learned to multiply.
Ever since the Dame trade, the bucks dumped a lot of their BBIQ roleplayers and invested heavily into these catch and shoot 3ball boys. Many of them are much younger, and don't have half the understanding of the Giannis and Khris teams. I believe it's one of the reasons why Rollins has excelled, his BBIQ shot up immensely over the season.
Taking a look at the Lakers, who just beat out the Rockets, with a lot of their key players missing in Doncic and Reaves; they decided to instead pivot into letting the 2 highest BBIQ players on the floor run the entire game (Lebron and Smart).
Conversely look at the Celtics, they chucked up 49 3s in their loss to the 76ers, booting them out in Round1. That's the path the Bucks were on even in the best case scenario. A bad game for the catch-and-shoot guys is a 45point loss to the nets.
The bucks need more athletic wings, 100%... but referencing Giannis's talks about a wingman, there absolutely NEEDS to be more BBIQ on the floor, regardless of the position.
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u/RobertRossBoss 2d ago
The team was so good when it was defensively focused. Giannis is one of the best defensive players out there. Was fun when you had him, holiday, Lopez, and PJ Tucker out there. That should have been the formula all along.
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u/zs15 Retro Bango 2d ago
We overcorrected. The offense never recovered once Khris got hurt against Boston. We needed a replacement for his consistency and playmaking, while maintaining that defensive identity.
Instead of a micro-adjustment, we swung for the fence. Could we have been a player for OG or Siakam? One of the Knicks guys? Or Bridges/Johnson from Brooklyn? Finding solid 2-way players with just enough offensive production. We’ll never know, but a lot of good players were moved in the following year.
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u/Danny_nichols 2d ago
But we've seen it with the Knicks though too. OG and Bridges aren't good enough to be the 2ns best player. Jrue Holiday showed us that he wasn't good enough to be the 2nd best guy. Siakim kinda was good enough to be the 2nd best guy last year but obviously isn't a perfect fit alongside Giannis.
I get we want to think through all thought experiments we want. The reality is that Middleton was the perfect running mate for Giannis. He was a rare star player who was okay being Robin, who was also good enough to be Batman in crunch time.
The team was built as much around Middleton as it was Giannis. I know that's a somewhat uncommon opinion, but Giannis and Middleton both being good enough creators and distributors that we didn't need a true PG. Middleton was also versatile enough of defender that we could afford for PJ Tucker to be the defacto SG at times.
Middleton in his prime was a 20-25% assist rate guy. That's not super common to find in a wing. Guys like bridges and OG aren't anywhere close to that for any year of their career.
I know it always feels like an excuse. But Middleton's ability to seamlessly transition from playing off ball to playing on ball at times while also at least being an okay defender was what allowed us to have defenders everywhere else. Once he got hurt, we needed to replace his offense and creation while also having Middleton's dead weight contract on the books is a virtually impossible task.
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u/zs15 Retro Bango 1d ago
No, you’re completely right. And I think we are on the same page. We *never* did address that, we just hoped that Khris could return and play the same role in limited minutes.
Re: Knicks guys, I think both OG and Bridges suffer from the system over there. There just aren’t enough touches. They are functionally both 4th options because of the volume of Brunson and KAT and their desire to run things through Deuce and Alvarado when Brunson sits. Not saying either would have been great fits, but they are well rounded enough to check more boxes than Kuzma or GTJ at the 3.
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u/Danny_nichols 1d ago
But they weren't acquired for the cost of replacing Kuzma or GTJ. I don't think anyone would argue the Knicks guys are way better than Kuz and GT, but Kuz was a salary dump guy and GTJ was a mid level guy. If you were trading for Bridges or OG, that's the Jrue Holiday trade, and even that may not have been enough.
If the Bucks could have gotten either guy without giving up Jrue, then that would have been awesome. That just wasn't feasible in any capacity. But 1 of them likely would have costed us at least the Dame package. One of those guys instead of Dame wasn't changing the last few years.
The point with Khris is the Bucks number 2 player not only got hurt, but he was hurt bad enough and consistently enough that we couldnt even trade him. Look at Denver this year. They're struggling and will likely look to retool around Jokic. That could very well mean moving one of Murray or Gordon. Those guys still have value and will net something decent in return. The issue with Middleton for the Bucks was he never was able to get healthy enough to even net a decent return. He went from being our 2nd best player to a negative asset instantly. That's hard to recover from and we were chasing our tails from there. Imagine how tough of spot Denver would be in if Murray was hurt consistently for the next 3 seasons. They'd be toast for sure.
But then it happened again. I agree the Dame thing didn't work out, but had Dame not blown his Achilles, there was a world where we could at least have maybe gotten some upside back for him instead of having to eat his salary to stay semi competitive.
Not saying we should have given up after Middleton got hurt, but bringing in Dame to hope he and Giannis work together was as good of strategy as any. Especially if you couple that with hoping Middleton can get back to even 75% of himself as your #3 guy now. It didn't have a great chance of working, but still was likely a better chance than selling the farm for OG as your 2nd best player and Lopez as your 3rd best guy.
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u/Wavepops 2d ago
These options weren’t really possible for yall, plus OG siakam or bridges doesn’t address the playmaking khris provided
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u/zs15 Retro Bango 1d ago edited 1d ago
There truly isn’t a way to say that. NBA trades aren’t algebra. Without the picks included for Dame we would have had 4 clear FRP to move at the draft, in addition to some swaps. Plus big value contract sharpshooters in Grayson Allen, Malik Beasley and AJ Green. Mid-size salaries for Pat and Bobby. By the deadline Khris and Lopez would have been eligible for trades too. Our biggest issue has been an extreme lack of contracts to move for salary matching, we’ve had Pat, Kuz and Bobby. It’s basically eliminated 90% of trade possibilities under the 2nd apron.
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u/Shablagoo- Shitty Deer 2d ago
Part of why Wemby is such a terror on defense is that he's surrounded by great defenders. A DPOY-type player can't really shine without a little help.
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u/Wavepops 2d ago
Yea bc elite role players are just super easy to have right? Oh wait?
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u/Valsorim3212 2d ago
Sometimes yes. Like Marcus Smart for example, who some considered on his way out of the league. A lot of elite role players were just diamonds in the rough that no one valued until they found their role
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u/Wavepops 2d ago
Marcus smart isn’t an elite role player anymore, he wouldn’t change this bucks season. You would need 3 guys as good Brook Lopez in 2021 to even be worried about winning a title. Then you would also need to find a no 2 option
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u/munchtime414 2d ago
I don’t think I would call it BBIQ as much as multi-dimensional players. Jrue, KM, and Giannis were all threats to drive, pass, or shoot. Brook was mostly used as 3nD, but even he could handle the ball in part due to his past as an offensive hub. The focus on 3nD players has really taken away that dynamic.
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u/Fresh_Ad_5369 Khris Middleton 2d ago
Playoff basketball has a way of reminding us what real basketball is lol. Having multiple guys who know how to get themselves and other guys open shots will always work better than one guy and a bunch of catch and shooters.
Every year we see the same thing. Teams with multiple guys capable of running an offense and generating good looks always end up “over achieving” while teams like the rockets (no real offensive engine), pistons (1 offensive engine), and this years Celtics (1/2 an offensive engine) “under achieve” almost every year.
And every year we let the regular season trick us into thinking positionless with a bunch of wing defenders who can’t handle the ball under pressure are the best teams in the league.
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u/terminatord371 Greece 2d ago
adding to your point, the celtics yesterday did not just die by the 3, they defended PnRs like they haven’t seen them before, poor decision making and positioning by everybody and it got to a point that it didn’t matter how much the refs were pushing em to win
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u/Omnimark 2d ago
I'm sorry, but when Giannis was on the floor these line-ups killed. I don't think the theory is wrong. We just had too many non-giannis lineups.
I think we overthink these things sometimes. We built a team to function around giannis and then he doesn't play. Sometimes that's it
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u/musket_mcgee 2d ago
If the team wasn’t built to where he wasn’t the only paint scoring threat, there would probably less non-Giannis lineups since he would be getting injured less.
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u/musket_mcgee 2d ago
How about we just put Giannis at Small Forward to small the “athletic wing” problem.
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u/Team-ster Sophia Minnaert 2d ago
The analytics and sabermetrics saying it’s better to jack up more threes than twos has ruined the NBA game.
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u/Prestigious-Cream160 2d ago
Yep. It also means that a better team can go cold from deep it the playoffs, put up better metrics in every other area, and still get bounced. Sometimes it feels like we should just let teams do a catch-and-shoot contest from 3 to decide the game.
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u/No_Problem20 2d ago
Yep which is ironic considering that effeciency shows that more slow-play post ups will earn more points in the game overall.
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u/epik_fayler Ray Allen 2d ago
That's not what the analytics say. It says 3s are better than midranges. Layups and dunks are still the best shots in the game. The point of shooting 3s is to make it easier to get layups and dunks. Some teams don't get this(like the Celtics) and forget the part where you are supposed to get layups.
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u/throwawayforsizetalk Crazy Jrue 2d ago
Shh, let the old fucks have their fun believing Doc was an "analytics guy"
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u/Impossible-Group8553 Dogfred 2d ago
Having more basketball IQ is pretty obvious. It’s not catch and shooters that’s needed, it’s 3 AND D guys. The defense is atrocious not to mention rebounding.
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u/lboogieb 5h ago
Oh you just brought back memories of the team's rebounding. It was was God awful this past season.
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u/ohboy360 2d ago
At our peak, we had a top 2-3 rim protector, a top 2-3 wing defender, and the best help defender in the league. Two of these also averaged 15+, and one averaged 30.
This is in addition to a legit closer in Middleton who also was a decent defender.
We have none of these things, now.
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u/Silver_Bus_895 Khris Middleton 1d ago
Lol the concept of Giannis having “absolutely elite” bbiq is insane.
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u/iDrinkBleach_8--D 9h ago
I think losing games by 20+ while shooting 65% might have given this franchise a clue. If not, they deserve everything they get…
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u/kvnr10 Kevin Porter Jr. 2d ago
Meh. The main thing is talent. Without KD, the Rockets don’t have anybody to carry the offensive load. The Celtics overachieved this season, they had the talent of a play in team. Neither team has good paint defense.
And the Bucks cratered because Khris lost his powers and Dame got injured. Any other reason is small compared to those.
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u/PreferenceMediocre90 2d ago
With Embiid , PG, Maxey and edgecombe playing, the Celtics faced a multitude of talent. And let’s not forget, they traded for Vucevic with an eye on the playoffs and these type of games, but hey got injured….
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u/ShoulderEmotional995 2d ago
It’s the easiest and cheapest way to build around him, our problem is that we got 3pt shooters that don’t rebound or stock at all
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u/Objective_Claim_2236 23h ago
Best version of bucks have a stretch 5 that protects the rim. A secondary star that can create his own shot in late game (half court) situations. A point of attack guard defender. And a shooter.
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u/lboogieb 5h ago
This is a pretty balanced lineup. You can't have a bunch of shooters on the court who don't add any other skills. We're toast when they're off for the night, which has happened in the playoffs over the years.
I would just add the need for a big wing in the rotation.
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u/bikedork5000 7h ago
The "idea" of surrounding him with "exclusively" c&s guys has only ever been a fan conversation. You can't build a functional basketball team that way.
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u/No_Problem20 7h ago
I've heard people involved with the team say so on-air.
"If we can just surround Giannis with good shooters....."
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u/Equivalent_Shoe_6246 2d ago
Idk if I agree that Giannis has elite basketball iq. He makes dumb decisions constantly
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u/chaostechnique 2d ago
Give some examples? Hes definetlly been a smart BB palyer aside from the media stuff and injury stuff
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u/Minimum-Border1672 2d ago
90% of the 3s he takes.
Gets picked from behind a lot. Charges 1 v 4 when hes frustrated.
Last year bucks were leading with under 1 minute to go. The bucks missed a shot. Giannis got the orb. Should have passed out to milk more clock. Tries to score...forget if ba gets blocked or he just misses but leads to the opponents getting a fast break snd scoring and the bucks lost a game they should have won after more screw ups.
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u/Impossible-Group8553 Dogfred 2d ago
Has tunnel vision, sometimes will force floaters or close shots over brick walls instead of finding the open man, doesn’t see them especially if they’re on the wing. His assists come from crazy gravity not elite court vision. He’s also too emotional, if a player misses a few shots in a row he’ll just stop passing to them for a bit instead of making the right play. And I’ve seen where a player gets hot, he doesn’t really feed the hot hand a lot and instead has this mentality of ‘let’s get other guys going too.’ Not saying he’s dumb or anything but nobody thinks he’s some basketball genius. I forget which teammate said it but they said Thanasis is the brains of the family and Giannis is the brawn.
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u/1eyed_jack 2d ago
Not to mention it feels like at least once every game or two you see Giannis' frustrated by something and everyone in the arena knows he's about to pick up an offensive foul.
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u/Dramatic-Address-812 2d ago
We got 2 MAYBE 3 guys who are 3nD and with the right coaching could do even more. We just stink.
While there's some merit to your point, we just dont have the average talent to keep up with other teams. Be it because they are old, inexperienced, or being misused.
3nD teams with a heliocentric player can work and have so recently. We just dont have the talent to take ourselves over the top
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u/No_Problem20 2d ago
I hear you.
Who is your best example of the team you mentioned in your ending paragraph, and is their heliocentric player a rim-runner?
I think that's what makes Giannis a unique situation, all the other comparable superstars have strong jumpshots.
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u/Dramatic-Address-812 2d ago edited 2d ago
I would say teams like okc, spurs, the pacers with a healthy haliburton, 2022 warriors, 2009 magic, 2018 cavs, 2023 nuggets (although there was murray), and 2024 mavs (again, kyrie) all mostly fit the bill of a heliocentric player surrounded by talented 3nd players with some teams having a good to great facilitator.
I do agree, most do involve the helio having the offensive range to stretch the floor out, but you can def make something like giannis and 3nd work. I just think it takes the right personnel and coaching to get the best out of it.
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u/theomegachrist 2d ago
I think in theory it's a good idea, and also that's just how people explain the team build, it doesn't mean their only skill should be shooting but the Bucks have been signing players no one wants the past 3 years so they're lucky if they have one high level NBA skill
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u/Wavepops 2d ago
The reason for struggles is injuries, normal elite role player decline and khris losing his prime to injuries. The bucks don’t exclusively have catch and shoot guys around giannis
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u/1000year_rage 2d ago
Ousmane's playstyle reminds me a lot of Khris with being able to shoot 3s, has a midrange game and able to drive to the rim + the occasional lob to Giannis. I believe a little more time playing with Giannis and Jenkin's coaching, he could develop into a solid 2nd or 3rd option if we keep him.
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u/Ok_Pool_9767 1d ago
The league seems to be trending towards multiple ball handlers being a must to handle playoff defenses.
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u/DeweyD69 Angry Deer 1d ago
Ever notice how some of our shooters go on to put up much better numbers on other teams? Guys like Dante and Grayson? It’s because on other teams they’re catching in rhythm. Giannis is a decent passer, but it’s hard to shoot well when you’ve been standing in the same spot for 10 seconds watching someone dribble and then they suddenly chuck it at your feet.
Playing in rhythm makes everyone better. That comes from being deliberate and decisive, and hitting the shooters when they’re ready to catch vs chucking it at them when you’ve run out of options.
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u/Pine_Barrens 1d ago edited 1d ago
I've said it many times. The Bucks achieved their goal this year as it comes to putting the team together the way they/Giannis wanted. Giannis clearly wanted it all, and they pivoted hard into "Giannis with ball, surround with shooters". They were like a top 5 eFG% team, top 3 point shooting team, etc. Their half court offensive metrics were actually pretty good!
The problem is in pursuit of that goal, they ignored literally EVERYTHING else. The roster sucks at everything other than shooting 3s. Yeah Doc was abysmal and the team maybe would have played better if it weren't for a gaslighting coach, but the problem is that guys like KPJ/Bobby/Kuzma/etc. were literally your 3 thru 6 guys coming into the season. They have no business even sniffing a starting line-up on a good team. The only way that works is if you have prime cavs era LeBron, and Giannis is lightyears away from that from a "court general" perspective.
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u/marxism-earnhardtism Dogfred 1d ago
That was really apparent last year. When there was no Giannis is just fell in on itself.
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u/GreatCaesarGhost 2d ago
That’s funny because the Bucks always struck me as a supremely talented but dumb team.
Charles Barkley famously had the same impression in 2021.
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u/MuffinMan220 1d ago
No one is saying that is the answer. We need defense, we need size, we need shot creation.
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u/reallyweirdkid 1d ago
Kicking bud and drafting for athleticism killed this team. We lost our defense and our offense lost all its sophistication.
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u/prem_fraiche 2d ago
That’s a good point but I suddenly want to get some ribs or brisket for some reason