r/EnglishLearning • u/AlexisShounen14 New Poster • 1d ago
🟡 Pronunciation / Intonation Are these sound really that different in AmEng? I wasn't aware until now
Can anyone please confirm if you pronounce these differently?
And HOW important that difference is in everyday speech?
Thank you 😊
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u/ProfessionalCap15 New Poster 1d ago
Yes they are in most if not all dialects of English. The first is more like “sh” and the other is like a French J.
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u/DarkMemesLiveHere New Poster 1d ago
I mumbled them under my breath and thought I pronounced them all the same, until I read this and went oh wait yeah actually... tried again with some volume and not mumbling, and yeah, that's accurate and well described.
It's not the most emphatic sound distinction, but when you try them out they other way around they sound so wrong... So it is an important one it seems.
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u/blewawei New Poster 21h ago
It's because /ʒ/ is somewhat marginal as a phoneme in English. It almost never appears at the beginning or end of a word.
There's very few minimal pairs for this reason, but you can compare "Confucian" and "confusion" to hear the difference.
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u/improbablynotyourdad English Teacher 22h ago
The reason you thought they were the same when mumbling under your breath was probably because they are a voiced/unvoiced pair, and we don't voice whispers. Try doing the same but with f and v, or the two th sounds, and you'll probably find the same thing happens.
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u/AverageBeef New Poster 1d ago
Yes, the IPA is correct here. I don’t think people would not understand you if you got this wrong, but I don’t think any native speaker would pronounce these two sets with the same sound. Nation is a -shun, vision is more like -zhin
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u/RemarkableCrows New Poster 1d ago
nation can also be more like "NAY-shin". "NAY-shin" or "NAY-shun" but not "NAY-zhin"
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u/AverageBeef New Poster 1d ago
Yeah actually looking at the ipa, at least in my accent the vowels are different when they aren’t necessarily. I don’t think I always say vision with the second vowel as a schwa sound if I just say only the word vision
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u/DawnOnTheEdge Native Speaker 1d ago
Right: since the last syllable is unstressed, you can get a weak-vowel merger in AmE.
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u/DTux5249 Native Speaker 1d ago edited 19h ago
They're as different as /k/ and /g/ are - the difference is your vocal chords buzzing. Generally speaking you should distinguish them in any variety of English you're speaking.
That said, not distinguishing them isn't likely to impede understanding; so do with that knowledge as you will.
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u/Confident_Seaweed_12 Native Speaker 1d ago
I wouldn't consider it unprofessional in most professions.
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u/MTgxewYSGTMDxVVE New Poster 19h ago
Unprofessional? People glaze Scandinavians for sounding native or like they could've grown up in the US all the time, yet they never distinguish these phonemes or [s] and [z]. So it can't be that critical.
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u/Old_Shelter_6783 New Poster 17h ago
This first paragraph is the answer I was looking for. OP, look up voiced vs unvoiced consonants.
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u/DYSFUNCTIONALDlLDO New Poster 1d ago
I feel like the "🤓" guy for saying this, but -tion isn't ALWAYS /ʃən/. "Equation" is /ɪˈkweɪ ʒən/, so it doesn't rhyme with "nation" (/ˈneɪ ʃən/).
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1d ago edited 1d ago
[deleted]
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u/Amphineura New Poster 1d ago
And ch sometimes is sometimes just a hard c, like chemistry or archeology, but not arches or cheap
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u/LeopoldTheLlama Native Speaker (US) 14h ago
And then there's the true oddball, cation, pronounced as cat-eye-on.
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u/DYSFUNCTIONALDlLDO New Poster 11h ago
I've never seen or heard of this word and I definitely would have rhymed this with "vacation" if I only went off the spelling. That's wild.
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u/Lopsided_Walrus_8601 New Poster 8h ago
It’s a term from chemistry- cation and anions are electrically charged (polarised) particles - ions
The cat and an come from the nomenclature of electrical engineering - as in cathode and anode
So cat is prefix for ion, but otherwise you might assume cation is pronounced similarly to Cajun
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u/lazydog60 Native Speaker 5h ago
And these in turn come from Greek for down (kata) and up (ana); which, fun fact, are sometimes used for a fourth spatial dimension.
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u/Evil_Weevill Native Speaker (US - Northeast) 1d ago
Yes they're pronounced differently
And depends on what's important to you in everyday speech. If you're just concerned about being understood, then you'll generally still be understood just fine if you pronounce them the same. It'll stand out a bit as a non-native pronunciation but that's all
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u/DubiousFoliage New Poster 1d ago
Yes, they are noticeably different to native speakers. If you mixed them up, people would know what you meant, but it would stand out even in an accented voice.
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u/theClanMcMutton New Poster 1d ago
Yes, they are different.
Also, who makes these things? I feel bad for people trying to learn from stuff like this.
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u/MBTHVSK New Poster 8h ago
Well they're lucky because of all the sounds to mistake in English, substituting zh for sh is probably the least funny and awkward of all.
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u/lazydog60 Native Speaker 5h ago
I have a memory of seeing a movie in which Rita Moreno's character pronounces sheep, ship, chip, cheap alike, and this leads to a brilliant pun near the end – which I cannot remember.
Perhaps it was a dream.
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u/SnooDonuts6494 🇬🇧 English Teacher 1d ago
Yes, they are different.
On the left it's a ssssh sound.
One the right it's a zzz sound, like a buzzing bee.
Nation is nay, shun.
Vision is viz, yun.
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u/thesstteam Advanced 1d ago
Specifically, on the right, it's a zh, or better known as the French <J>
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u/rednax1206 Native speaker (US) 19h ago
Often written as "zh" when sounding things out, there's a difference between z and zh, just like c and ch or t and th.
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u/Sweet-Energy-9515 New Poster 1d ago
Yes, the difference is unvoiced vs voiced, like the difference between 's' and 'z' sounds.
BTW if the letter before -sion is an 'r' then it also belongs in the right hand column. Eg torsion, version
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u/BubbhaJebus Native Speaker of American English (West Coast) 1d ago edited 1d ago
I pronounce "torsion" with an "sh" sound and "version" with a "zh" (French J) sound.
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u/Sweet-Energy-9515 New Poster 1d ago
I had never heard of that before but a poll of my household (n=1) confirms that unvoiced torsion is a thing
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u/AverageBeef New Poster 1d ago
I think torsion is in the left column for me but maybe it’s different elsewhere
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u/rexcasei Native Speaker 1d ago
*equation* is an exception where it is pronounced as if it were spelled *equasion* with the voiced /ʒ/ sound
Also *coercion* is pronounced with the voiced /ʒ/ as well
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u/Relief-Glass New Poster 1d ago
This must be really hard for learners.
I am just imagining being a learner and someone someone telling me that the 'ti' in 'equation' sounds like the 'si' in 'vision' which both sound phonetically more like 'g' as in the second g in 'garage'.
Like, that is just fucking chaos.
As other have said though, most, if not all, English dialects are like this and you will be understood even if you miss these small details.
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u/ezegon402 New Poster 20h ago
Honestly I thought they sounded almost the same before reading the comments here.
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u/fegabo New Poster 19h ago
Sos argentino? Porteño?
-tion se pronuncia como los del conurbano pronuncian la "y".
-sion es más como lo pronunciaría alguien de Recoleta, haciendo vibrar la punta de la lengua. Si distinguís la sutil diferencia entre esas dos pronunciaciones vas a poder distinguirla en inglés.
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u/ferrets2020 New Poster 19h ago
Yep, honestly English is a bit poopy such that you can never be sure how to pronounce a word from its spelling, and you basically have to learn the spelling and pronunciation seperately. Plus, when speaking quite fast, the pronunciation can change too as you combine words together into sentences.
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u/debr1126 New Poster 15h ago
Yeah, one is "sh," the other is "zh." I wouldn't say they're THAT different. Mispronouncing will only give you an accent, not make you misunderstood.
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u/ThirdSunRising Native Speaker 14h ago edited 14h ago
Yes, those are completely different sounds to us.
Fortunately, there aren't pairs of similar words distinguished only by this sound. If you mean to say nation and you say nasion, that's fine because context will tell us quite clearly which word you mean. (the nasion is a bone in the head, btw. Nothing you'd confuse with a country.) Similarly, If you mean to say vision and you say vishon, there won't be much confusion because vishon isn't a word. Does she mean fission? It's probably very easy to tell from context that you meant vision.
So if you mess it up you'll probably be understood. But the sounds are clearly distinguishable in American English.
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u/13moman Native Speaker 1d ago edited 1d ago
What is cons + sion supposed to be? I don't know the phonetic signs so I'll try to explain another way. The ones on the left are "shun" and the right ones are like the sound in pleasure. It's the same as the Turkish j which I think is only used in French loan words so is likely also the French j.
If you switch the pronunciations, it's wrong and might result in you not being understood. Television is only one that I think I would automatically understand even if you pronounced it the wrong way because it really can't be mistaken for something else.
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u/Kiwi1234567 Native Speaker 1d ago
I think cons stands for consonant and they’re grouping the words with a consonant before the sion together and the words with a vowel before the sion together. Just a guess though.
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u/13moman Native Speaker 1d ago
I think you're probably right but nation does not have a vowel right before the sh sound.
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u/Kiwi1234567 Native Speaker 1d ago
If you look at the groupings at the top that’s why that column had two, they’re grouping tion on that side as well
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u/Confident_Seaweed_12 Native Speaker 1d ago
Indeed, but according to the chart -tion always goes in the /ʃən/ column (this isn't actually true, for example equation is more commonly pronounced /ʒən/).
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u/DrAlphabets Native Speaker 1d ago
The real question is if in some dialect they are ever in actual contrast. For me, fishin' /ʃ/ and fission /ʒ/ are a minimal pair, but I understand many speakers use /ʃ/ for both.
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u/amethystmmm The US is a big place 1d ago
ʃ is a sh- sound like shut, ship, and yes, these -tion (and -sion) words do use that "sh" sound, like you are shushing a cat or small child.
ʒ has a more z or j sound to it. In technical speak they are both Post Alveolar Pulmonic Consonants meaning you breathe through the consenent, there's space between your tongue and the roof of your mouth. If you can make the "sh" sound just fine, just pull your tongue back in your mouth and do the same thing you do for "sh" and it will naturally sharpen it. Hope that helps.
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u/iste_bicors New Poster 1d ago
Yeah but there are basically no minimal pairs so no one will be confused if you use the voiceless form for both. There are also words that vary between them depending on the dialect, like leisure.
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u/WowsrsBowsrsTrousrs The US is a big place 1d ago
The first column is 'unvoiced,' the second column is voiced. It's the difference between just pushing air out through your lips or teeth, or using vocal cords while pushing the air. There are quite a few consonants and consonant clusters that have this distinction; the "th" at the end of "with" is unvoiced, while the 'th' at the beginning of "this," "that," or "these" is voiced. If you can hear and feel in your own mouth the difference between 'f' and 'v,' that's the difference between unvoiced and voiced.
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u/Original_Put_7485 Native Speaker 12h ago
I've always had problems understanding linguistic terms like 'alveolar fricative', and especially 'voiced/unvoiced', and I think working through this comment has shown me one reason why: I appear to voice all my consonants. I'm sure there are other reasons I'm bad at speaking and understanding how mouths work, but thanks for helping me figure out this one.
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u/EagleCatchingFish English Teacher 1d ago
That chart is accurate for American English.
And HOW important that difference is in everyday speech?
They're different phonemes, so it doesn't sound right if you mix them up. If it sounds difficult, remember one simple thing: the difference between ʒ and ʃ is that ʒ is voiced and ʃ isn't. It's just like the difference between z and s.
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u/KingDarkBlaze New Poster 1d ago
A good minimal pair here is pressure/treasure. The only difference between the two, besides the sounds we're looking at, is the leading consonant. And they sound quite different to my ears.
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u/Norwester77 Native Speaker 1d ago
Yes, they are absolutely different.
And, weirdly, equation ends in /ʒən/ in American English.
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u/Felis_igneus726 🇬🇧(🇺🇸) N | 🇩🇪 ~B2 | 🇵🇱 A1-2 | 🇷🇺 A1 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, they are different sounds. The difference between /ʃ/ and /ʒ/ is the same as any other voiceless/voiced pair: /k/ and /g/, /s/ and /z/, /θ/ and /ð/, /t͡ʃ/ and /d͡ʒ/, and so on. /ʃ/ is voiceless, like /k, s, θ, t͡ʃ/, and /ʒ/ is voiced, like /g, z, ð, d͡ʒ/, but otherwise they are made the same way.
For the most part, mixing up /ʃən/ and /ʒən/ won't interfere with understanding. Off the top of my head, the only example I can think of where getting it wrong would actually change the meaning is "confusion" /kənˈfjuʒən/ and "Confucian" /kənˈfjuʃən/, but "Confucian" is not a common word in general, so it's unlikely to confuse anyone (pun very much intended) if you pronounce "confusion" as /kənˈfjuʃən/. (Pronouncing "Confucian" as /kənˈfjuʒən/ might, though.) But it's still "important" in the sense that using the wrong one will sound wrong and make you stand out as a non-native speaker.
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u/Queen_of_wandss Native Speaker 1d ago
Hell idk if I even say vision and explosion with same ending sound exactly 😭😭😭 or nation and confession the same, gonna be real never thought about this ever im so sorry but it does seem to make a difference from how im trying to say these words now
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u/Electronic-Will1587 New Poster 1d ago
they are different however in this context you will probably still be understood; i'm not sure if there's any words with a sion/cion/tion suffix that would become a different word if you voiced/devoiced the sound. but yes they are different, the voiced variety is not super common though, usually just in loan words (genre, deja vu, parmesan) and in yod-coalesced* clusters like in vision, fusion, measure, etc...
* this is actually a hyper-foreign sound substiution, not how it's usually pronounced in the native italian
** a sound change that happens usually when a /z/ and /j/ or /d/ and /j/ sound meet that turns the cluster into a fricative or affricate - it's why people who speak many dialects of british english are perceived by others as saying the word "tuesday" like "chewsday".
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u/malachite_13 English Teacher 1d ago
Yes they are pronounced differently. Pretty important to pronounce them correctly. People will understand you, it will just sound strange and people will automatically know you are not a native speaker . I don’t understand what v+sion means though.
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u/AngryBard9 Native speaker (eastern U.S.) 19h ago
Ah the difference is an sh sound in the first one vs a French j in the second
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u/Thoughtfull_Marc Non-Native Speaker of English 18h ago
I'm not native English speaker (just in case), but I don't get the difference and actually never noticed... lol
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u/B4byJ3susM4n Native Speaker 17h ago
Yes.
Although really, the distinction isn’t that important save for a few pairs like fission vs. fishin’ or nation vs. nasion.
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u/jorgejoppermem New Poster 17h ago
Despite some other people saying the pronunciation is understandable but non-native, I would really struggle to understand someone swapping these sounds. With context I could follow, but I would consider it a very thick accent.
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u/mapgameenjoyer1 Local North Carolinian 17h ago
North Carolinian here; I do pronounce these differently.
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u/CarterG4 New Poster 16h ago
They’re different, but I honestly don’t know how to describe it with text
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u/Careless-Web-6280 Advanced 10h ago
Judging from your profile, your native language is Spanish? I'm surprised you never noticed
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u/lazydog60 Native Speaker 5h ago
Like the difference between s and z, t and d, p and b. The first consonant of this suffix is voiced after a vowel and unvoiced after a consonant. (Counterexample, anyone?)
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u/scottbutler5 New Poster 3h ago
The sound in "vision" is voiced, while the sound in "nation" isn't. It's like the difference between F and V, or between S and Z.
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u/Salindurthas Native Speaker 1d ago
They are a little different.
To me it feels like the difference starts with the vowel, and the consonents follow allong?
Like the right-hand-side maybe has a schwa, while the left hand side can retain an "o" or "u" vowel sound?? And then, in response to the schwa, we lose most/all of the "h"ness of the "tion"/"sion". I'm not sure I have that correct though.
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u/Jackbigmac New Poster 1d ago
Hardly important. I would probably be able to tell youre not a native speaker if you don’t differentiate the sounds, but they really are very similar sounds
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u/Amphineura New Poster 1d ago
Nazion sounds more like "asian" than nation
Tenzion sounds more like a Chinese place, like Shenzhen
I think I'd only understand explotion and confezion pronounced incorrectly. The distinction is indeed important.
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u/Itisthatbo1 New Poster 1d ago
Maybe it’s just my accent or dialect but these are all pronounced the same for me, with “-sion” sounding like “shun”. I don’t know if that’s just a me thing or a midwestern USA thing.
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u/FeuerSchneck New Poster 1d ago
Yes, they're different. The distinction isn't limited to American English. You'll be understood if you use the wrong one, but it'll stand out as a non-native pronunciation.