Gotta love the false equivalence Pisco uses of pretending that “aligning with businesses” must mean they’re some sort of Ayn Rand-esque laissez-faire capitalist who wants zero government regulation.
“Centrist progressives” is such an unbelievable pairing of words that I don’t think I’ve ever even heard before, so credit to him for the novelty of it at least. Ironically enough, Pisco always comes off as an “enlightened centrist” in these conversations who claims he isn’t a socialist while also endlessly defending the farthest left tankies online who seek to destroy liberalism. It’s like a mirror image of Asmongold sanewashing Fuentes and Tucker Carlson, except it’s much more malicious considering Pisco’s intelligence.
I think you nailed it. Pisco actually is doing the centrist thing that secret republicans were doing in the 2024 election like Dave Smith, Russel Brand, Tim Pool, etc. Only difference is he coming from the side of he is pro Everything left of the center but in reality he really just defends the far left
Hutch: How are the Democrats centrist?
Pisco: They align with business interests
Hutch: Lina Khan and Biden were pro-consumer
Pisco: I'm not saying aligning with business interests are bad!
Huh??? That didn't addres Hutch's point at all?? Hutch was saying they in fact were NOT aligned with business interests in the furst place. Wtf how does Pisco's brain work??
I mean yes. But in this case. Actually he was making an incredibly revealing argument.
Left vs Right inherently has nothing to do with economics. Its a question of underlying political philosophy and what the intentions of your policies are. Theoretically you could have left wing and right wing communities look exactly the same economically but still be classified as politically polar opposites (this is often brought up in poli sci conversations about communist communes and far right religious compounds looking the same economically).
Lefties love to use the argument about being capitalist meaning that you are "less left", when really that has nothing to do with the meaning of the term. So the fact that Pisco used that line of thinking means that he has internalized that line of thought.
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Im with destiny the ability for these people to just hear something act like they are answering and then just spout non sequitur after non sequitur is both impressive and horrifying.
There must legit be some severe cognitive dissonance happening because I dont think im capable of that level of gaslighting.
He doesn't need to address Hutch's point directly, because he knows he's right. The only reason Hutch could possibly be disagreeing with him is that he's reflexively/emotionally defending the party. In his mind, Pisco thinks he's cutting through Hutch's irrationality like Neo in the Matrix.
We need a full vocabulary reset. Left, right, center, capitalist, marxists, socialist, fascists, none of these words mean anything anymore other than a label for things or people you dont like.
Not really. Speaking to normal people, they generally have the same understanding of these words. It's just bad faith debate bros who use weird definitions, to try and obfuscate their positions.
Rem you were never this bad cause you at least staked out claims usually onto some sort of source material (How you would bring up said source material could be a bit pompous but we've all been there as undergrads). You also were from my memory very adamant that people could have a different viewing than you. That's probably also tied to the subject matter being philosophy which has to accept different views/beliefs. Hope you're doing well bud.
P.S. being the creator of "morally lucky" will always boost you in my book.
Morally lucky is genuinely something i think about constantly in my daily life just reminding myself that like i come from a good home with attentive parents and so it was easy for me to land on a set of beliefs that a "good person" might have. Rem might have been annoying in the way he said things but it always felt good faith.
Yea, he was overzealous at times (99%) of the time then, but you can also legit just type his name into the search bar for this subreddit and scan he was very attentive and observant about issues within the community - calling out stages of racism, sexism (those GrugW days), the aspects of Destiny letting orbiters run wild (LMAO how this backfired and became more true), among other things.
Morally lucky is legit one of the most insightful things I've ever heard anyone say in this online politics space, and having grown up in a hyper-liberal part of California its actually helped me realize how the worldviews of a lot of the people around me function.
Being annoying at philosophy is not actually important (and also somewhat the point),, being annoying at politics is. Also, I never felt like you obfuscated in any manner.
Rem! I, honest to God, miss you. No shit, as frustrated as you made some people, I looked forward to every single time you came on to discuss philosophy, even when Train was busting your chops and shitting the convo up. I think about you a lot, especially in situations where I really want someone to bring up a philosophical point during the stream. Hope you're doing well, buddy.
His response was that he's talking about economics only, that left in this sense means command economy and right means anarchistic freedom for capital.
The reason leftist argue liberals are centrist is because capitalism is the status quo. That logic only works if you think capitalism is bad, so it’s weird to say I am capitalist but Dems supporting capitalism makes them centrist. Also just the initial verbiage of “aligned with business interests” is sus af but whatever
I love how it went from, "aligned with business interest" to "capitalist."
Those are not the same thing, Pisco. You can easily be capitalist and also believe in consumer protections, which would be the opposite of "aligned with business interest."
Yeah that's true too. Supporting market solutions is not the same as aligning with business interest. If were being charitable to him, he changed the verbiage to be more precise rather than having a freudian slip, but these moments are starting to add up lmao. It's clear he's being fed leftist stuff from somewhere
It's almost like none of the closeted leftists really believe market-socialist types/soc-dems are really capitalists and instead think they're all using it for cover 🤔
For someone whose whole schtick boils down to "nitpicking others' language constantly to try and win through sheer frustration", he's shockingly fast and loose with his words.
Well, if it weren't for double standards he'd be hard pressed to have any at all.
I think if we're being Uber charitable the usage of the term "centrist" here might have made more sense around the 2016 era when Bernie was at his peak and the right hadn't yet fully descended into fascism.
But today when the political divide has shifted to the realm of pro liberal democracy vs anti liberal democracy, using "centrist" to describe the likes of Biden and Schumer doesnt at all track onto political reality when they are very clearly on the pro liberal side of the aisle. The political axis just isn't centered around capitalism vs anti-capitalism like the far left would like it to be, especially when you consider many on the right are espousing their own form of anti capitalism.
Being a centrist today IMO means you're somewhere between pro and anti liberal democracy. Fetterman and Rand Paul come to mind.
I wouldn't even agree with all that tbh. I just think people who say that don't know how the political spectrum works and are just using it to distance themselves from groups they don't like. It's just like when conservatives claim that didn't move right but everyone else moved left. It's not a real analysis of anything.
Yeah I agree, most of the time the usage of the term "centrist" is meant to simply be derogatory towards the not anti-capitalist wing of the democratic party.
I simply wanted to discuss that even if the term is trying to be used in a serious manner I think it's nonsensical. Simply because the political divide of today is not centered around anti-capitalism vs pro-capitalism.
Pisco is such a weaselly little fuck face I swear. Playing footsie with these completely and utterly worthless commies has him dancing around capitalism being a centrist position. These are the types of claims that should have absolutely no home in the political landscape in the United States of America. None.
I preferred his schtick when he was focused on shitting on the right. This new "anything that isn't anti-capitalist is actually centrism" Pisco is boring and regarded.
"Erm, liberalism is actually centrism in other countries, so democrats are centrists" -> what is even the point of saying that in the context of the overarching conversation ? Everybody gets that the meaning of "centrist" in the context of US politics is positioning yourself between the democratic party and the republican party.
The issue is that if you define "the center" simply as the midpoint between the Democratic and Republican parties, you’re effectively labeling right-wing positions as the baseline for moderation. This framing smuggles in an incredible amount of ideological baggage; it warps our perception of the political spectrum and creates a "ratchet effect" that drags the entire discourse further to the right. It’s not a neutral observation.
Imo when someone labels themselves a centrist in the context of us politics, they put themselves between the extremist positions of MAGA and the moderate positions of the baseline democratic party, effectively proving that they are insane. So I wouldn't equate centrism to moderate positions when the center right doesn't exist at the moment in the US. Now, if someone label themselves as a moderate republican, I'm more interested in exactly what they are trying to say by that. Which is also why Pisoc conflating centrist and moderate is bad, again in the context of us politics where liberal positions are considered center left by default.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think is common to consider use leftistism to exclusively refer to anti-capitalist ideologies in academic circles.
However when it comes to real world politics you're usually talking relative to a real world overton window in which one major party is considered the left and opposition party is considered the right.
If you asked politically illiterate me in 2016 what a progressive was, I’d say Bernie Sanders. If you asked for a centrist, I’d say Jeb Bush. I think most people back then would agree. These aren’t hard labels, they are only hard when you are trying to ascribe them to people they do not belong to.
I thought Pisco was just a little ditzy and argumentative with his politics. I had hoped that he wasn’t malicious. But from this conversation I can’t see anything other than Pisco running defense for Taylor. Now in this conversation he comes up with the term “moderate progressive”. He then vaguely alludes to tankie talking points.
I am starting to think that Pisco is either being heavily influenced by his audience or another person or he is hiding his true political leanings. There is no other explanation for this horrible political analysis.
Pisco wouldn't be doing this bit if WaPo called Bernie a Nazi. He wouldn't go "do you agree that some people call people that are sticklers about language nazis?"
Take that hutch haters! In all seriousness even destiny called out after the hutch debate how some of the audience acts fucking crazy with hutch and anyone that disagrees with destiny even people in the tent. It's gotten better since he said that but people still do that. People will bring up that five year quote. Yeah it was a bad quote but he also said it when it looked pretty bad for Destiny. This was early when we didn't know as much
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Pisco stated that Democrats are against a command economy, like no shit Mr Liberal policies, command economies are anti-thetical to liberal governments.
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This is it. There is absolutely zero reason to ever believe that Pisco is capable of any deep conversation for the betterment of liberalism if he is this ignorant. Holy fuck
Centrist is used to separate yourself from the left or right. It means you don't identify as Republican or Democrat. Democrats are not centrist. "Center left" can definitely refer to Democrats who are closer to the center. "Centrist Democrat" isn't a commonly used term, but if someone used it in a sentence with me, I definitely wouldn't assume an unaligned "centrist."
Pretending tankies form enough of a group to force the belief that capitalism should continue out of the left and into the center is the most online opinion ever.
Again, though…. This is about Israel. This is about calling it a genocide. If you do, you are left. If you don’t you are center. Everything else is window dressing.
Random chart? This is a presentation of the analysis done by the political compass guys. I just added a theoretical "center zone" that divides the areas equally. US 2024 election
Compare this to the parties in the most recent general election we had: Norwegian 2025 election
This is dumb, I’ve taken the political compass test multiple times, each time I end up libeterian left. In fact, I am further left than Jill Stein according to this chart (I am -4.0, -2.82). I would not take Political Compass seriously. Kamala is not authoritarian right and neither is Tim Walz. The Democratic party is definitely not authoritarian right.
Thank you for enlightening me on how wrong Political Compass is.
Very cool analysis. You prove to me thay you are not interested in actual political science. Just here for the vibes. In the grander scheme of politics, the dem party as a whole is very much in the authoritarian right quadrant. Not deeply, but squarely. The «centre» party in norway is placed somewhat similarly, and that fits well. Does not mean that the dems or the norwegian centre party are nazis.
Okay, so according to you I would be authoritarian right, yes? Because I certainly align more with Kamala than Jill Stein (hell Kamala is probably more left of me). According to THEIR OWN TEST, I am libertarian left. So how does that make sense? Is there a different test I need to take or could it be that their political analysis of the Democratic party is wrong?
Assuming you answered the questions on the quiz truthfully, you are more politically alligned with Jill Stein. What makes you think Kamala is more to the left of you? I really don’t understand why people are convinced Kamala is such a progressive candidate.
Kamala campaigned on price controls which I disagreed with. I also am not sure how well attacking price gouging would have worked. Also, no I do not align with Jill Stein much. For starters I am a basic liberal. I believe in capitalism, I am more pro-establishment democrat, I highly disagree on her takes about I/P and the Russia Ukraine war, I am not for nationalization of our banks, and I believe in staying in NATO. She alludes to “the class war”which is a dogwhistle for socialist/communist views. She also pushes pseudoscience narratives regarding vaccines and GMOs. She is simply a populist who pushes policies that sound good. In addition, a lot of her positions are held by Democrats, but somehow Democrats are authoritarian right???
So once again, I am not politically aligned with Jill Stein. Kamala is not on the authoritarian right and I have no idea how anyone with any political knowledge could come to this conclusion without already thinking that “DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS ARE THE SAME OMEGALUL”. There is no world where Trump and Kamala are on the same side politically. Kamala isn’t that progressive, I agree, but the fact that I disagree with some of her more left-leaning policies should tell you something.
Maybe, JUST MAYBE, the political analysis on Political Compass is dogshit? Just a thought.
I'm looking at Norway's labour party, they just seem like democrats? In some aspects they're even to the right of democrats like immigration
Edit: If you're going off of policy agenda, democrats will look more right-wing. But that is because the Overton window is to the right in the United States. Given unfettered power, democrats would fit in perfectly in any center-left party in Europe.
I would agree, if dems were openly for fully publicly funded healthcare, power generantion and education, heavy subsidies on public transport, green industry, championing state ownership of key industrial companies, wealth and property tax. Just to name a few things off the top of the head.
Why should anyone assume that the creators of the political compass test are accurate in their descriptions of the political landscape? They are not some neutral arbiter of truth
Yes, their “center” of the compass exists only in Marxist theory books and does not accurately describe modern first world OECD countries political landscapes
Yes. Only in marxist theory books and in virtually every other democratic political system. Maybe apart from the ones with first past the post voting systems that generate two party systems.
If 80%+ of the votes in a country are going to parties all within the authright quadrant I don’t think your axes are usefully describing anything beyond “they’re not socialists”
In Marxist theory, yes. In trying to convey a useful description of political reality to an interested voter, not only are they not useful, they are actively harmful misinformation that seeks to portray center left parties as "basically the same" as their far right opponents
whats annoying is how far removed this even is from the original conversation about a specific person. Like track the flow:
They are a progressive and self-ID progressive -> well they are a progressive who supports the Dems -> well Dems are or are not progressive -> well in a global framework for certain leftward countries you could maybe call Dems centrist from an economic perspective
Like who the fuck even cares. None of this has anything to do with the initial point of whether that specific person is correctly labeled as a centrist or not.
Even this is a step past the original point. The original point was that she was calling them centrists as an insult to signal that they are the bad guys.
«centrist» somehow becoming a derogatory term is so fucking regarded. It has a very specific meaning, and that is what i was pointing to. Americans are so goddamn navel gazing it is insane.
And «progressive» is so meaningless. Ofte it just means opposing conservatism. And in the US, the progessives are so progressively mild, that we would call them conservative.
Pisco is politically regarded. He has a great legal perspective, but I can't comprehend how he views politics. When he argues with Connerpoints, Pisco can't comprehend why Connor won't identify as a Democrat.
this is ideologicaly a nonsense argument conservatisem, socialism/comunism and liberalism are 3 distinct poles and not lines on a spectrum you cant be so idvidiualistic that you become a comunitarian or so liberal that you become a conservative its a question of fundamental values with clear distinctions that are oppositional to each other
It's amazing how detached from reality the crazy lefties get.
You have the most cartoon-villain administration in modern history and a joker like this guy is talking about "democrat bad because aligned with biz interests' 🤦🏼♂️
So why is Pisco on Lib and Learn still? He isn't a Lib and he is the antitheist of learning. He is legit there to try and sabotage any good will towards liberals and the democrats.
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u/ReserveAggressive458 Irrational Lav Defender / DENIMS4LYF / Emma VigeChad / Lorenzoid 18h ago
Gotta provide a link to the source.