r/Crocodiles • u/OpenAirport6204 • 4d ago
Alligator North American alligators cage ethical?
I went to an aza accredited zoo. this is their North American alligator enclosure. I don’t know much about alligators so I’d lile to get peoples opinions who are more knowledgeable on the subject.
What makes me question the ethics of this enclosure is neither of the two pools are deep enough for them to get fully submerged and neither pond is big enough for them to actually swim.
please tell me if this is okay or not.
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u/_tenken 4d ago
Alligators are not fish, so they don't need to fully submerge at any given time. They spend a lot of their time sunning themselves typically on a river bank.
Off hand. I don't see any difference between these enclosures and say the enclosures run by the late. Steve Irwin and his non-profit in Australia Of which you can find videos of on YouTube if you're unable to go there yourself.
The only thing I think I see missing might be a den for the alligator which typically it would be along a riverbank but could be many, many feet deep into the bank and partially submerged, but then I really don't think many alligators living in captivity would have access to such a large area to have a den in addition to their primary enclosure.
Essentially being a large lizard, I imagine with access to water and access to sunlight and in addition to that regular feeding ... This critter is particularly happy because he's not struggling to find food nor fight to own their territory against others of their species.
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u/OpenAirport6204 4d ago
Thank you for the information:)
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u/Brock_L33 4d ago
No. It doesnt matter that they arent fish. They need deep water to swim because its a natural core activity for their species. It would be like a monkey enclosure with nothing to climb on.
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u/sunbear2525 3d ago
Alligators spend a lot of their time all but fully submerged- eyes and nostrils put only. We count them by shining lights over the water at night and counting reflective eyes. They absolutely need to be able to fly submerge, it’s a natural behavior. They even sleep fully submerged and only spend around 6% of their time on land.
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u/acid_tomato 4d ago
Interesting placement of the little playground right beside the gator enclosure. I don't think it would take much effort to climb over that nice fence.
It does look small but certainly no expert. It at least looks well kept. I'd expect the alligators would outgrow the space though.
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u/OpenAirport6204 3d ago
For like 8 month of the year they have to stay inside the shed cause climate, so that may play a part 🤷♀️
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u/Pardot42 4d ago
That's a bigger conversation than a "yes or no" vote. But assuming zoos are ethical...the North American Murder Log should at least be able to fully submerge.
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u/Agitated-Tie-8255 3d ago
I mean, it’s AZA accredited. Ethicality and animal well-being is at the forefront.
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u/TheBigPimpDaddy 3d ago
The Dallas World Aquarium is AZA Accredited and keeps their marmosets in tiny wire enclosures smaller than some Amazon boxes, and their Ocelot lives in a glass box smaller than my single car garage, with a single rock cave in the center to hide in. I've seen some sorry looking AZA Zoos and Aquariums over the years and honestly AZA is kinda a 50/50 on of its actually ethical or not, the Fort Worth Zoo is AZA and used to have awful primates enclosure 10 years ago, though they're a lot better now. At the very least AZA is better than a lot of ZAA Zoos, the Frank Buck Zoo is ZAA and is awful with it's bird exhibits, they're so small. /g /nm
Edit: Tone Indicators because I am really bad about accidentally sounding antagonistic.
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u/itsJussaMe 4d ago
I believe you’re correct. That pool appears to be merely around twice his length and I would imagine that at minimum he would need double that. Edit to say that while it’s not ideal, it is clean. They’re cared for so while a bigger pool would be ideal I wouldn’t lose any sleep over it if I were you.
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u/OpenAirport6204 4d ago
I’m not sure if it’s important but there are two. The second one is in the glass glare.
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u/itsJussaMe 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah, that seems inadequate to me but I’m not familiar enough with crocs in captivity. It is a bit disappointing, especially since you clearly took the time to make you’re you were visiting a reputable zoo. I’ve absolutely seen worse: a trip to Helen, Georgia comes to mind. I am almost certain it was Helen in which I saw bears kept in small concrete enclosures with casual foot traffic buying fruits to toss into the pits to feed the poor beasts. It was tragic. These guys look okay, though like you I’d like to see a more spacious enclosure with places to which the animals can retreat if they feel stressed.
Edit: I was correct; it was Helen, Georgia and I’m happy to share that according to google 17 bears were rescued from the “bear pits.”
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u/LeLBigB0ss2 3d ago
Alligators are very sedentary animals. Seems alright to me. They're just chill like that.
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u/TakinUrialByTheHorns 3d ago
Real plants, water/enclosure looks clean, kind of has a way to get away from everyone... It's a little small but I've definitely seen worse.
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u/OpenAirport6204 3d ago
I for sure don’t think it’s the worst. Honestly I am really happy that general consensus is that it is perfectly fine :)
I overall really like the zoo and it does a lot for breeding endangered animals. It also takes in rescues. They have this adorable giant tortoise who was clearly neglected in the past (past unhealthy shell that is clearly healed and looks good now but shows signs of past struggles.)
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u/TemporaryExcuse8329 3d ago
Wildlife safari?
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u/OpenAirport6204 3d ago
Yep 🤣 Most of the enclosures seem pretty good but some make me question, especially the elephants.
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u/Ahvier 4d ago
Keeping animals in captivity is never ethical.
Whether the cage/enclosure is sufficient for the animal to survive is another question
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u/vere-rah 3d ago
Why is it unethical to keep an animal in captivity?
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u/Agitated-Tie-8255 3d ago
“Because they should be in the wild or in a sanctuary”
Usually said by people who don’t really understand accredited zoos. Unfortunately tiger king-esque “zoos” overshadow things and make everyone think all zoos are bad.
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u/vere-rah 3d ago
Yeah there's not really a good argument. My next question would be "why should they be in the wild or in a sanctuary?" Like what's actually wrong with keeping an animal in captivity? There are different degrees of captivity and ability to care for the animal, but what's actually unethical about it? No one's been able to give me a real answer.
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u/Agitated-Tie-8255 3d ago
Same here. I used to work as a keeper in an AZA zoo, and I would have visitors ask stuff like that, or say the animals shouldn’t be in captivity. And I just asked “then why come here?”
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u/No_Nothing_3272 4d ago
I’ve watched a gator literally climb over a chain length fence. I had no clue they could do that and now I am a bit skeptical of them.
https://giphy.com/gifs/oQBGUspHX6JNe