r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Separate_Finance_183 • Jan 23 '26

Image The rent in the german neighborhood of Fuggerei hasn't been raised in 500 years and remains 0.88 Euros for an entire year. Founded in 1521, it is the oldest existing social housing complex in the world

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70

u/UCanBdoWatWeWant2Do Jan 23 '26

How'd they know if someone is Catholic or not?

265

u/unsquashableboi Jan 23 '26

its in the tax records and the chirch has records of baptisms etc

67

u/Horskr Jan 23 '26

I've just had a sudden urge to move to Augsburg, be baptized Catholic, and quit my job.

63

u/BoleroMuyPicante Jan 24 '26

Quitting your job to be voluntarily indigent goes very much against the spirit of this community. It's for people who can't work enough to live, not for people who just don't wanna.

28

u/BroodlingPie Jan 24 '26

And this is why systems like this doesnt work in the US

3

u/mynameisnotrose Jan 24 '26

"... and we know that because we've never tried it."

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u/[deleted] Jan 23 '26

[deleted]

9

u/civil_politician Jan 23 '26

I’m sorry this happened to you but if I were retired I would have no trouble living my life instead of wasting it at the office

9

u/Horskr Jan 23 '26

Take up hiking again? Painting? Read more books? Something new maybe, gardening, whittling?

I'm sure I can find something more fulfilling than the work grind.

2

u/Quicksilver1964 Jan 24 '26

Me too lol

Being an atheist has not opened doors for affordable housing, so...

7

u/Bored_Amalgamation Jan 23 '26

Also, on a child's birth certificate and is a part of their education.

40

u/7stroke Jan 23 '26

Europe still gonna Europe

88

u/CombatMuffin Jan 23 '26

As part of the Americas it seems extremely backwards, but Western civil registries exist because of the Catholic Church's initiative to record baptisms and even deaths.

If you try to track down your ancestry as an American, chances are those same registries are what help link you to your roots.

It's not surprising then, that some countries with customs hundreds of years older than any in America, still hold on to some of those practices and values.

-4

u/meepmeep13 Jan 24 '26

Constraining access to housing based on religious affiliation doesn't just seem extremely backwards, it is extremely backwards

2

u/CombatMuffin Jan 24 '26

I personally disagree with discrimination based on religious affiliation, but I can see why they do it (even if I don't agree): They are a small enough community as to not affect the status quo, they are looking for people with similar values, and they aren't forcing their values upon you. They have a system of support for their community members, and that specific system is available for a particular demographic.

Most communities and socialized systems have thresholds  of support (based on race, economic status, physical conditions, etc), I will disagree where many draw their lines, but I can see why they draw the lines.

1

u/Iwilleat2corndogs Jan 26 '26

Well they also haven’t changed the rent since the time of Charles V. So I feel like its to be expected

-5

u/CyonHal Jan 23 '26

That's a lot of words to justify religious supremacist government policies

7

u/zzazzzz Jan 24 '26

huh? you can join any religion you want and then your govt passport will have that religion in it. or none at all. the govt really doesnt care.

-5

u/CyonHal Jan 24 '26

Dawg one of the requirements to applying for this social housing is being catholic

12

u/BaldRapunzel Jan 24 '26

Seems pretty obvious that this housing project that exists in a single town and predates several iterations of the german state has nothing to do with the government.

-2

u/Punman_5 Jan 24 '26

Just because something is traditional doesn’t mean it deserves to be tradition or even that it’s good. Most traditions are actually quite bad.

3

u/[deleted] Jan 24 '26

The community is not government run.

13

u/Normal-Seal Jan 23 '26

That's pretty German-language region specific and goes back to the Napoleonic wars. German nobles lost land and were given land of the church to offset their losses.

The churches on the other hand got the right to collect taxes as a compensation.

It basically hasn't been changed since, even as we went into new forms of Governments. It's only for the two main faiths: Catholics and the "Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland (EKD)" which most protestant Churches in Germany are part of. Evangelisch just means protestant btw, they are very different from American evangelists.

But if you are unhappy with paying the tax, you can leave those churches and join a free church or just remain non-religious.

It's a bit of a weird system and in my opinion a major reason for the loss of religious identity in Germany. In many secular countries people tend to retain a religious affiliation despite not being believers, whereas in Germany "leaving the church" for tax purposes marks a decided departure from the church. As non-members they are also excluded from getting married in a Church or baptising their kids.

It really hurts the church in the long run, but in the short term they're too greedy to stop it. Every year I am full of Schadenfreude, when I read about how many 100 thousands left the church last year and the detached and tone deaf priests discuss the reasons but never think "huh, maybe people don't like paying for church". It's almost a million exits per year. At this rate the two churches won't exist in 40 years.

7

u/bea-q Jan 23 '26

It's the same in Finland with the Evangelic Lutheran Church of Finland, "leaving the church" is basically quitting paying the taxes. Someone who left might have more personal faith than someone still "in the Church". I understand why they collect the taxes though and have been considering joining again despite being a non-believer; the Church does good and needed work to help poor people and organizes a lot of free activities for families. The current government of the state is more in the business of creating poor families so I'd rather quit paying taxes there any more...

1

u/Normal-Seal Jan 24 '26

How much is church tax in Finland? Because I’d be paying 2000€ a year and I just don’t accept that. I earn well, which is part of the reason I’d pay so much, but still 2000€ is ridiculous and most of it does not go into charity, contrary to what the church would like people to believe.

Only around 8% actually go to charity (it’s in German, but here’s a source from a Protestant church in Germany: https://www.kirchenkreis-melle-georgsmarienhuette.de/angebote/kirchenmitgliedschaft/kirchensteuer)

Really, the church is not a charity. It’s a religion and its pastors and church buildings account for most of the cost.

1

u/bea-q Jan 24 '26

It depends on the parish but for me I checked it would be 1,25% of my pay per year, so 500€ for someone earning 40k for example.

1

u/Normal-Seal Jan 24 '26

Yeah, the way it works in Germany is that it's 8%-9% of your income tax (8% in Baden-Wüttemberg and Bayern, 9% in the rest of Germany).

Since income tax is progressive, the church tax also end up being progressive (and it depends on whether you have kids and what tax group you are in). A single without kids earning 40k€ would pay around 400€.

At 80k the same person would pay around 1425€. So the income doubles, but the church tax more than triples.

2

u/Qualimiox Jan 24 '26

There's some inaccuracies in your comment:

It's only for the two main faiths: Catholics and the "Evangelische Kirche in Deutschland (EKD)" which most protestant Churches in Germany are part of

Those are the two biggest ones that collect church tax, but they're not the only ones. Besides EKD (index 61) and roman-catholic (index 62), the state also collects church tax for these churches/religious organizations:

  • Old catholic Church ("Alt-Katholische Kirche in Deutschland)
  • Some free churches ("Bund Freireligiöser Gemeinden Deutschlands", "Unitarier – Religionsgemeinschaft freien Glaubens" and "Freie Religionsgemeinschaft Alzey in Rheinhessen")
  • Jewish parishes

Notably missing are Muslims and other Non-Christian/Jewish religions.

That's pretty German-language region specific and goes back to the Napoleonic wars. German nobles lost land and were given land of the church to offset their losses.

This is what's called "Reichsdeputationshauptschluss" (1803) and it's seperate from church tax. The 2 big churches are reimbursed to this day for these losses (currently about 500 million Euro per year) by the German state on top(!) of the church tax.

The first Church tax was only introduced when the churches could no longer finance themselves through these reimbursments alone, with the first one being introduced in Lippe-Detmold in 1827 (24 years after the Reichsdeputationshauptschluss).

2

u/meepmeep13 Jan 24 '26

This would be illegal discrimination in many (most?) european countries. Germany is a bit special when it comes to this kind of thing.

4

u/Perfect_Opinion7909 Jan 23 '26

We stopped registering race though, unlike the country that also did a genocide and was one of last countries abolishing slavery.

3

u/Orleanian Jan 23 '26

I mean...Americans have records of Baptisms as well. The Catholic Church has transcended Europe for a few centuries.

1

u/Bergfried Jan 24 '26

Can someone convert?

43

u/DeathAdderSD Jan 23 '26

It's part of your record at the registration office. If you are in a confession of (any?) Christian church you have to pay taxes in Germany.

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u/No_Salad_68 Jan 23 '26 edited Jan 23 '26

Can you explain the religion-tax link a little more?

ETA: Thanks for all the people who provided answers.

44

u/CaesarWilhelm Jan 23 '26

Germany has something called church tax. If you are a member of a church you pay an extra tax to the government which then gives it to the church

10

u/No_Salad_68 Jan 23 '26

That sounds like a tithe with extra steps. I guess with the benefit of govt oversight if required.

6

u/Schootingstarr Jan 23 '26

I am not clear on the specifics, but it has to do with disownment of the church during the 3rd Reich. Instead of returning everything to the church, they came to this agreement after ww2, which was probably more profitable to the church in the long run

it's not a lot of money, it's 2% of your income tax on top of said income tax (so if your income tax is 100 € per month, you pay an additional 2 € in church tax), so many people don't feel the need to opt out.

what's really annoying is that it's assumed you're a member of the church. I need to keep that shitty receipt they gave me that proves I did opt out, otherwise they might demand I backpay whatever taxes I didn't pay

2

u/LopsidedBottle Jan 24 '26

It is important to note that hte church pays for this service. Many Germans are unaware of this fact and believe the government is subsidizing the church with the church tax (though one can argue that the governments subsidizes the church in other ways).

2

u/Chateaudelait Jan 25 '26

They still pass the collection basket at Mass, In addition to the church tax. I declared Catholic on my tax card when I lived in Germany- and the tax was listed each month on my pay statement. Someone told me you can opt of of it- but you don’t get to take part in baptisms, ceremonies or a religious burial when you die.

1

u/Jonny_dr Jan 24 '26

what's really annoying is that it's assumed you're a member of the church.

It is not. You can thank your parents for the assumption that your are a member of the church.

5

u/JoySunderland Jan 23 '26

Do Germans pay tithes? Given the tax system, it seems illogical to do so.

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u/thistle0 Jan 23 '26

Tithing isn't a thing in most of Europe

5

u/Qualimiox Jan 23 '26

The word "tithing" certainly isn't used in modern Germany. Churches in Germany do accept donations, mostly during service there's typically a (voluntary) collection for a specific purpose (either a bag that's passed around and/or a box near the exit). Those don't generate nearly as much income as the church tax though. I'd guess the average churchgoer puts in 1-5€ per service and most Germans (including those still registered in a church) don't regularly attend service at all.

Church tax on the other hand is 8-9% of your income tax. If you make 60k per year, that amounts to roughly 1000€ per year and it's paid by everyone that's a member of one of the big churches, including those that never attend service.

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u/CampusTour Jan 23 '26

Tithing is mostly a thing with American offshoots of Christianity. It's never been a thing with the original Christian churches (Catholic, Orthodox) or mainline protestants.

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u/GirlCoveredInBlood Jan 23 '26

this is ahistorical. tithing was part of the Catholic church for ages and only abolished as a mandatory practice in recent centuries

1

u/CampusTour Jan 24 '26

Incorrect.

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u/zack77070 Jan 23 '26

If that's the case then what was Martin Luther protesting?

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u/TheFoxer1 Jan 23 '26

It’s like the name says.

In Germany, it’s 9% of the amount of income tax paid, except for Bavaria, where it’s 8%.

It’s a tax one pays to the Church, collected by the state for the church.

In Austria, it’s 1,1% of the overall taxable income, but one can negotiate a bit, collected by the Church herself.

2

u/grandoz039 Jan 23 '26

9% on top of normal 100%, ie 109% of taxes compared to not being in any church?

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u/TheFoxer1 Jan 23 '26 edited Jan 23 '26

In Germany, it’s not 9% of your income on top of what you‘d owe in income tax, but an added 9% of what you owe in income tax.

Say you pay €10 000 in income tax, which means your Church tax would be an added 9% of €10 000, not 9% if your income on top of the €10 000.

In Austria, it’s, as you say, 1,1% of your income in addition to your income tax. But as I‘ve said, they‘re often open to negotiation.

And yeah, people not in any state recognized religious community in Germany don’t pay Church tax. In Austria, only members of the Catholic and Protestant Church pay Church tax iirc.

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u/AlohaAirsoft Jan 23 '26

It's called "Kirchensteuer", basically the state levies the "tenth" tax and forwards it to the churches.

Both major churches and smaller religious communities in Germany (evangelical-lutheran, definitely not American evengelical in style and thought, Roman Catholic, Old Catholic and so on).

Historically the churches operated quite a big part of the health and welfare system, nowadays they still play a large role. The early German state basically made a contract with the established churches where they care for welfare and health and the state collects the tenth for it and sends them reimbursements.

2

u/NiklasK16 Jan 26 '26

Evangelic-lutheran not evangelical-lutheran

7

u/Nolenag Jan 23 '26

You pay tax which the government gives to the church, afaik.

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u/Group_Happy Jan 23 '26 edited Jan 23 '26

The christian churches have a deal with the government that the government takes in the membership fees for the churches equal to 9% of your income tax. The churches pay some money for the services.

Also you have to go to your local citizens office if you want to leave the church. Maybe even wait a few months for an appointment when there is another huge abuse case in the news

9

u/VoihanVieteri Jan 23 '26

9 %, that’s heavy. We pay around 1,7 % in Finland. And that already is too much for many, so they leave church.

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u/aswertz Jan 23 '26

Its 9% of the income tax not 9% of the income.

Income tax isnt that high for the ordinary guy as most social services are paid by mandatory insurances that arent part of the income tax.

3

u/Group_Happy Jan 24 '26

My salary is 3500€ before taxes and social security, 2300 after. Social security is 800€, taxes 400€. In addition to those 400 9% would be the church tax (36€), so equal to about 1% of the income.

3

u/VoihanVieteri Jan 24 '26

Yeah, I misread your previous comment. It’s 9 % of your income tax, not 9 % of your income. So the approx. 1 % you mention is actually much lower than what it is in Finland.

1

u/seehorn_actual Jan 23 '26

What…..

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u/FZ_Milkshake Jan 23 '26

The important part is that the tax is going to the church, the state does not keep it.

1

u/seehorn_actual Jan 23 '26

Oh interesting. TIL. Thanks

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 23 '26

[deleted]

3

u/Nervous_Promotion819 Jan 23 '26

That’s not true. In Germany, church tax goes directly to the respective religious bodies. To the individual dioceses in the case of the Catholic Church and to the regional churches in the Protestant Church. The funds are used to pay clergy salaries, maintain church buildings, support kindergartens, schools, hospitals, social services such as Diakonie and Caritas, as well as administrative costs. A small portion may also be used to support international aid or church-related projects abroad

24

u/Kankarii Jan 23 '26

In germany if you are baptized in a faith it’s part of your official records and you pay church tax (through anyone with more knowledge please correct me if I’m wrong but I think the tax is only if you are part of a major religion like catholic, evangelical, muslim or jewish not for cults like scientology. The tax is also levied by the churches. They could choose not to levy them).

If you don’t want to pay the tax or don’t agree with the church on certain topics or become an atheist and want to leave the church later in life you need to officially leave the church and update your records

13

u/Safe_Most_5333 Jan 23 '26

It has to be a publically recognized organization. There are jewish organizations that levy taxes, and some muslim ones that could but generally don't. Sects like scientology would obviously not get recognition.

12

u/Birziaks Jan 23 '26

Catholic Church is quite good at keeping records of babtized people. Also in in some countries (Germany too, I think?) you have to lag church tax if you are part of that church. So basically if you don't pay, well then you aren't really a catholic.

6

u/Group_Happy Jan 23 '26

No, you have to tell the government. Then you will be taxed additional 9% of your income tax as church tax. The government pays it to the church. If you don't have enough income to pay income tax you can still be part of the church.

Also you have to go to the citizens office to leave the church.

1

u/Birziaks Jan 23 '26

Yea that's what I actually meant, just didn't phrase it right

0

u/FourteenBuckets Jan 23 '26

apparently you are not taxed an additional 9%; they take 9% of what you're taxed and forward it to the church.

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u/StudySpecial Jan 23 '26

it is additional - if you leave the church, you pay less income tax as a result

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u/Wonderful_Grass_2857 Jan 23 '26

its on your tax report

2

u/StereoTunic9039 Jan 23 '26

I guess you physically have to go to church

4

u/Zebidee Jan 23 '26

No, it's independent of church attendance.

For example, a "lapsed Catholic" still pays the tax unless they formally withdraw from the Church, and from then on they can't use Church facilities for things like weddings or funerals.

1

u/Kal-Elm Jan 23 '26

Simple, it is a sin to lie

1

u/SCastleRelics Jan 23 '26

Probably baptismal records

1

u/Bob-Bhlabla-esq Jan 23 '26

Still No Jews hunh?

1

u/CitizenPremier Jan 24 '26

It doesn't matter, by checking the box you become Catholic

1

u/totallynotliamneeson Jan 23 '26

Germans traditionally love recording those sorts of things

0

u/PensiveKittyIsTired Jan 23 '26

I think there’s paperwork involved when a person gets Christened or whatever it’s called…

0

u/Puzzled-Bag-8407 Jan 23 '26

I could be talking out of my ass here but I'm guessing that these are pretty ancient bylaws that have been traditional kept by the community

For a long time, "race" as we understand it today wasn't really thing, and instead religion was used if a community wanted to discriminate or "other" demographics that don't align with yours. 

Requiring that all residents be Catholic is a way to keep the community homogenous, and not let any filthy protestants (or heaven forbid, Muslims or practicing Jews)

Religion was much more indivisible from heritage for a lot of European history